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Author Topic: Ask the soccer referees....  (Read 4729 times)

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Offline Go Postal

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2019, 07:00:48 pm »
Thanks for explaining it more.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 07:03:09 pm by Go Postal »

Offline Go Postal

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2019, 07:01:41 pm »
These questions are directly related.  First off, the referee cannot officially tell players to kick the ball out, nor can they dictate which players can be present at a dropped ball or what should happen after the ball is dropped and hits the ground.  However, soccer as a world sport has a few conventions that high school players may or may not know, but referees may be inclined to encourage.  If Team A kicks the ball out because a player is hurt, when Team B takes the throw in they are expected to return the ball to Team A (in a manner that doesn't put B at immediate risk).  One act of good sportsmanship deserves another.  The same goes for some drop ball situations.  Rather than have a contested drop ball where players are at risk of kicking each other (or the referee!) a team may agree to kick the ball back to the other team's defensive end or keeper and not challenge for that ball.  The referee may even drop the ball to a keeper alone, but both teams understand the situation and are in agreement.  The decision is ultimately the players', not the referee's.

High school has a mix of players with varying degrees of experience with the game.  Players with limited exposure to soccer outside of high school may not be aware of this type of sportsmanship.  Sometimes referees take it upon themselves to educate them - with occasionally mixed results.  Most players will buy into the concept if it is explained to them, but ultimately it is their decision and the referee should not take that out of their hands.

Years back I was watching a U18 Rec game officiated by a state level referee (very experienced).  A drop ball situation occurred where it was appropriate for one team to get the ball, however several of the players were not knowledgeable enough to recognize it.  When both teams approached to contest the ball, the referee stepped in front of one player and dropped the ball to the other.  Let's just say there were some unhappy players (and fans).  The coach explained the reasoning to the players a few minutes later at the half and they understood, but a little explanation on the field by the referee would have been helpful!
This^^^^

Offline $aintMaximu$

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2019, 07:44:05 pm »
If anybody is a ref or understands rules related to the crowd and the refs authority PM me... unreal what just happened at a game

Offline Arkiesoccer

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2019, 10:46:22 pm »
Not a ref but would like to know... 8-)

Offline sssuperpantherfan2

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #54 on: April 12, 2019, 06:24:03 am »
I’m curious too, I’ve seen school admins come into the stands and speak to parents. The ref was bad, one of our players would get offside and then get back onside, the side judge would flag them when they touched the ball onside of the defense.

Offline Arbitro

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2019, 07:35:55 am »
I’m curious too, I’ve seen school admins come into the stands and speak to parents. The ref was bad, one of our players would get offside and then get back onside, the side judge would flag them when they touched the ball onside of the defense.
I don't know about the specific incident you are describing because I wasn't there, but remember that offside position is determined when the ball is kicked to the player, not when the player receives the ball.  So if the attacker was past the second-to-last defender* when the ball was played or touched by a teammate, and he came back onside to receive the ball, he was still offside.

*The keeper is usually the last defender, so the rear-most field player is generally the second-to-last defender.  However, if the keeper comes way out of the goal, it could be a field player that is last and the keeper or another field defender that are the second-to-last defender.

Offline $aintMaximu$

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #56 on: April 12, 2019, 07:51:19 am »
So last night at our game Shiloh Vs. Gentry I was ejected from the game.  We have a very large growing student section that comes to our games.  I have been buying tacos and handing our the soccer horns to create some energy.  The student section is acting just like what you would see at a basketball game.  They are loud and obnoxious but not vulgar.  I set very close to them.  Towards the end of the first half the ref stopped the game and told them to sit down and shut up or he was going to forfeit the game.  The students sat down and didn't say a word, they were very shocked as this was a first.  Parents shocked too.  As he was walking away he angerly turned around and said - WHO SAID THAT!  ONE MORE WORD AND THIS GAME IS OVER!  The kids didn't say anything.  I yelled - what if I say something, what if somebody else says something and you think its the kids, will the game be over?  He then said you need to get out of here,  you need to go home.  He said this directly to me from the field to me in the stands.  I didn't argue.  I had parents telling me to leave so we didn't lose and the coach as well.  So I left.  My wife asked the ref at halftime what happened and if I could come back.  He said he didn't ask me to leave so he can't tell me if I can come back.  She said- I heard you?  He then said- Don't listen to her and walked away...

I came back and he stopped the game, got our Secondary Dean to ask me to leave or we would be forced to forfeit the game??  So I was like, you just said you never asked me to leave??  So I left again...  Very very strange situation.  The Gentry coach had no issues and said they had the same situation at their game. 

 

Offline Arbitro

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #57 on: April 12, 2019, 09:09:53 am »
So last night at our game Shiloh Vs. Gentry I was ejected from the game.  We have a very large growing student section that comes to our games.  I have been buying tacos and handing our the soccer horns to create some energy.  The student section is acting just like what you would see at a basketball game.  They are loud and obnoxious but not vulgar.  I set very close to them.  Towards the end of the first half the ref stopped the game and told them to sit down and shut up or he was going to forfeit the game.  The students sat down and didn't say a word, they were very shocked as this was a first.  Parents shocked too.  As he was walking away he angerly turned around and said - WHO SAID THAT!  ONE MORE WORD AND THIS GAME IS OVER!  The kids didn't say anything.  I yelled - what if I say something, what if somebody else says something and you think its the kids, will the game be over?  He then said you need to get out of here,  you need to go home.  He said this directly to me from the field to me in the stands.  I didn't argue.  I had parents telling me to leave so we didn't lose and the coach as well.  So I left.  My wife asked the ref at halftime what happened and if I could come back.  He said he didn't ask me to leave so he can't tell me if I can come back.  She said- I heard you?  He then said- Don't listen to her and walked away...

I came back and he stopped the game, got our Secondary Dean to ask me to leave or we would be forced to forfeit the game??  So I was like, you just said you never asked me to leave??  So I left again...  Very very strange situation.  The Gentry coach had no issues and said they had the same situation at their game. 

 
Whew!  A lot to deal with here!  A couple of ground rules though.  I am not going to throw the referee under the bus because I wasn’t there and I have no idea what was said, what was heard (not always the same thing), and what other things were happening that we don’t know about.

First, the referee has the authority to have spectators removed from the game.  The referee also has the authority to terminate the game if he deems it necessary, such as for unsafe playing conditions.  The referee cannot make a team forfeit.  What he will do is write up a report describing why the game was terminated, and what the time and score were when the game was ended.  AAA will decide whether the score should stand as a final result, the game should be replayed at another date, or any other result they decide fits the situation including forfeit by the “offending” side.

What kind of things might the referee hear that could cause him to have someone ejected?  Personal insults directed at players.  Persistent insults directed at the referee crew.  Audible comments questioning the honesty of the referee crew.  Loud abusive or vulgar comments in general.  No doubt there are others.  If the referee decides that someone must leave, the proper procedure is to go to the coach or the appropriate administrator and have them deal with it.  Having the referee deal directly with spectators is not generally a good idea.

In the game in question, was the referee correct in his decision to deal with spectator conduct?  I don’t know because I wasn’t there, but he probably would have been better off going through the administration rather than trying to address it directly.  It sounds like he backed himself into a corner with the “one more word” type of comment, and when you challenged him on it he was left with little alternative but to have you leave.  It’s easy to say how things could have or should have gone when we talk about them the next day, but in the heat of the moment things don’t always go the way we’d like.

Offline sssuperpantherfan2

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2019, 09:13:09 am »
I don't know about the specific incident you are describing because I wasn't there, but remember that offside position is determined when the ball is kicked to the player, not when the player receives the ball.  So if the attacker was past the second-to-last defender* when the ball was played or touched by a teammate, and he came back onside to receive the ball, he was still offside.

*The keeper is usually the last defender, so the rear-most field player is generally the second-to-last defender.  However, if the keeper comes way out of the goal, it could be a field player that is last and the keeper or another field defender that are the second-to-last defender.

They came back onside, not to receive a direct pass, the ball was moved around some then passed to the player that came back onside. So how much time or passes need to be made before a player can be onside after moving from offside? Smart defensive players will pull attackers off easily.

Offline Buck183

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #59 on: April 12, 2019, 09:38:25 am »
They came back onside, not to receive a direct pass, the ball was moved around some then passed to the player that came back onside. So how much time or passes need to be made before a player can be onside after moving from offside? Smart defensive players will pull attackers off easily.

I vividly remember the incident you speak of.  If I remember correctly the opposing coach lobbied the AR for the call and got his way. 

Offline chaoslord

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #60 on: April 12, 2019, 09:39:18 am »
Whew!  A lot to deal with here!  A couple of ground rules though.  I am not going to throw the referee under the bus because I wasn’t there and I have no idea what was said, what was heard (not always the same thing), and what other things were happening that we don’t know about.

First, the referee has the authority to have spectators removed from the game.  The referee also has the authority to terminate the game if he deems it necessary, such as for unsafe playing conditions.  The referee cannot make a team forfeit.  What he will do is write up a report describing why the game was terminated, and what the time and score were when the game was ended.  AAA will decide whether the score should stand as a final result, the game should be replayed at another date, or any other result they decide fits the situation including forfeit by the “offending” side.

What kind of things might the referee hear that could cause him to have someone ejected?  Personal insults directed at players.  Persistent insults directed at the referee crew.  Audible comments questioning the honesty of the referee crew.  Loud abusive or vulgar comments in general.  No doubt there are others.  If the referee decides that someone must leave, the proper procedure is to go to the coach or the appropriate administrator and have them deal with it.  Having the referee deal directly with spectators is not generally a good idea.

In the game in question, was the referee correct in his decision to deal with spectator conduct?  I don’t know because I wasn’t there, but he probably would have been better off going through the administration rather than trying to address it directly.  It sounds like he backed himself into a corner with the “one more word” type of comment, and when you challenged him on it he was left with little alternative but to have you leave.  It’s easy to say how things could have or should have gone when we talk about them the next day, but in the heat of the moment things don’t always go the way we’d like.


I was typing up my reply and of course you beat me to it. I agree with just about everything you said here. I will nitpick one thing where I disagree with you (and this is more a definition thing because in practice it works out about the same), in that I don't believe the referee has any authority themselves to have spectators removed from the game. Everything from NFHS Rules Books leads me to believe that the referee must go through the coach/admin (1-6 Situation). The authority to eject spectators belongs with the home team admin IMO. I think this is an important distinction to make because I believe the idea that "I as the referee can eject spectators" leads to situations like this which should 100% never happen. Any requests to have a person removed need to go through the site admins.There is no reason for a referee to be dealing with spectators on their own short of, say, there are no bleachers and fans have put their chairs a little too close to the touchline, and even then it's still probably easier/preferred to work with the site. That said, I would hate to work at a site where the home team admin overruled me on this issue and would probably request to not go back the rest of that year (if not longer), so in practice it should work out to be "If I want this person gone, they are gone".

As a management tool, definitely agree on "one more word". I cringe when I hear an official use something like that. People *love* to push that button and see what happens.

If the events were described accurately, the referee was in the wrong to act in this manner. But, arguing with a referee can be like arguing with a cop at a traffic stop: you may be right but it may not be the time to show how smart you are. Again, if described accurately, I sincerely doubt AAA would have handed down a forfeit, but if the referee terminates the game that night is ruined for the players even if it gets rescheduled for later.

Offline $aintMaximu$

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #61 on: April 12, 2019, 09:49:33 am »
I was typing up my reply and of course you beat me to it. I agree with just about everything you said here. I will nitpick one thing where I disagree with you (and this is more a definition thing because in practice it works out about the same), in that I don't believe the referee has any authority themselves to have spectators removed from the game. Everything from NFHS Rules Books leads me to believe that the referee must go through the coach/admin (1-6 Situation). The authority to eject spectators belongs with the home team admin IMO. I think this is an important distinction to make because I believe the idea that "I as the referee can eject spectators" leads to situations like this which should 100% never happen. Any requests to have a person removed need to go through the site admins.There is no reason for a referee to be dealing with spectators on their own short of, say, there are no bleachers and fans have put their chairs a little too close to the touchline, and even then it's still probably easier/preferred to work with the site. That said, I would hate to work at a site where the home team admin overruled me on this issue and would probably request to not go back the rest of that year (if not longer), so in practice it should work out to be "If I want this person gone, they are gone".

As a management tool, definitely agree on "one more word". I cringe when I hear an official use something like that. People *love* to push that button and see what happens.

If the events were described accurately, the referee was in the wrong to act in this manner. But, arguing with a referee can be like arguing with a cop at a traffic stop: you may be right but it may not be the time to show how smart you are. Again, if described accurately, I sincerely doubt AAA would have handed down a forfeit, but if the referee terminates the game that night is ruined for the players even if it gets rescheduled for later.

Arbitro makes a good point that I backed the ref into a corner.  My intent really was to defend the kids and also point out that anybody could say something and now that would result in a loss/forfeit.

The story is pretty boring really.  Nothing crazy happend.  No cussing, threats or anything else.  If I am going to get throw out, at least have a good story... I don't have one however...

I guess the ref understood the rules as you have said and that is why he told my wife he didn't ask or tell me to leave.  Because he knew it was outside of his scope...

Offline $aintMaximu$

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #62 on: April 12, 2019, 09:50:19 am »
And the worse part is I didn't even get a grilled hot dog...  Tragic...

Offline chaoslord

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #63 on: April 12, 2019, 09:55:29 am »
They came back onside, not to receive a direct pass, the ball was moved around some then passed to the player that came back onside. So how much time or passes need to be made before a player can be onside after moving from offside? Smart defensive players will pull attackers off easily.

Each time one of their teammates touches/plays the ball, a new offside snapshot is created. Their teammate is dribbling, left foot touch, right foot touch, left foot touch, right foot touch, at each of those points their previous status is disregarded and they are handed a new one based on if they were in an offside position or not at that touch. There is no time element involved outside of that. If my teammate sent a through ball down the field and the ball just rolls to a stop and no one touches it for 5 minutes (everyone decided to stop and watch some birds flying overhead), if I was in an offside position when the pass was made, I'll still be penalized for being offside if I'm the first to touch it after the birds finally leave. As long as you were onside the last time a teammate touched the ball, you're onside until the next time a teammate touches the ball.

Offline Arbitro

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #64 on: April 12, 2019, 10:03:16 am »
I was typing up my reply and of course you beat me to it. I agree with just about everything you said here. I will nitpick one thing where I disagree with you (and this is more a definition thing because in practice it works out about the same), in that I don't believe the referee has any authority themselves to have spectators removed from the game. Everything from NFHS Rules Books leads me to believe that the referee must go through the coach/admin (1-6 Situation). The authority to eject spectators belongs with the home team admin IMO. I think this is an important distinction to make because I believe the idea that "I as the referee can eject spectators" leads to situations like this which should 100% never happen. Any requests to have a person removed need to go through the site admins.There is no reason for a referee to be dealing with spectators on their own short of, say, there are no bleachers and fans have put their chairs a little too close to the touchline, and even then it's still probably easier/preferred to work with the site. That said, I would hate to work at a site where the home team admin overruled me on this issue and would probably request to not go back the rest of that year (if not longer), so in practice it should work out to be "If I want this person gone, they are gone".
The referee can never physically make a spectator leave. All they can do is terminate the game if they feel the situation warrants it.  So if a fan was being abusive and the coach/admin refused to deal with it, the referee could decide that it was unsafe to continue and terminate.  Not a situation anyone wants to get into because everyone is going to look bad after the fact.  There are always extreme cases that merit immediate ejection, but ideally in most normal situations the conduct will be addressed and play can go on without anyone have to go.
Quote
As a management tool, definitely agree on "one more word". I cringe when I hear an official use something like that. People *love* to push that button and see what happens.
Maybe not Refereeing 101, but something all referees should learn ASAP.
Quote
If the events were described accurately, the referee was in the wrong to act in this manner. But, arguing with a referee can be like arguing with a cop at a traffic stop: you may be right but it may not be the time to show how smart you are. Again, if described accurately, I sincerely doubt AAA would have handed down a forfeit, but if the referee terminates the game that night is ruined for the players even if it gets rescheduled for later.
I don't know that we can say the referee was wrong in his intent (we just don't know) but he should have used the correct process to resolve the situation.

Offline sevenof400

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #65 on: April 12, 2019, 10:47:02 am »
Each time one of their teammates touches/plays the ball, a new offside snapshot is created. Their teammate is dribbling, left foot touch, right foot touch, left foot touch, right foot touch, at each of those points their previous status is disregarded and they are handed a new one based on if they were in an offside position or not at that touch. There is no time element involved outside of that. If my teammate sent a through ball down the field and the ball just rolls to a stop and no one touches it for 5 minutes (everyone decided to stop and watch some birds flying overhead), if I was in an offside position when the pass was made, I'll still be penalized for being offside if I'm the first to touch it after the birds finally leave. As long as you were onside the last time a teammate touched the ball, you're onside until the next time a teammate touches the ball.

And some of you will think Chaoslord is stretching the truth here - this has happened before (albeit not in HS soccer but youth soccer...)

Offline pantherdad

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #66 on: April 12, 2019, 12:28:30 pm »
In two of the high school games I've officiated this season (as center ref in one and as assistance ref in the other) we have had to ask coaches/admin to remove spectators or risk immediate termination of the match. Both expulsions were attributed the use of vulgar language, in particular the "F" word. Whenever a spectator screams that expletive across the field at an official, coach, player or whoever, it's the duty of the official to ask the admin/coach to have them removed or risk termination of the match. I would never issue a "one more time" warning. It's crazy that I've experienced this twice this season; I've never seen it happen in the years I've been watching/coaching/officiating soccer ever.

Offline $aintMaximu$

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #67 on: April 12, 2019, 12:45:26 pm »
In two of the high school games I've officiated this season (as center ref in one and as assistance ref in the other) we have had to ask coaches/admin to remove spectators or risk immediate termination of the match. Both expulsions were attributed the use of vulgar language, in particular the "F" word. Whenever a spectator screams that expletive across the field at an official, coach, player or whoever, it's the duty of the official to ask the admin/coach to have them removed or risk termination of the match. I would never issue a "one more time" warning. It's crazy that I've experienced this twice this season; I've never seen it happen in the years I've been watching/coaching/officiating soccer ever.

If somebody was doing that near me I would ask them to leave as well... 

Offline AirWarren

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2019, 09:30:20 pm »
Max, you’re a thug.

Offline slawdawg millionaire

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2019, 11:50:43 pm »
One thing I've noticed this year is that there have been a lot more indirect free kicks. I'm really only used to seeing those given when the keeper improperly picks up a back pass from a foot. But then yesterday, a girl from Mountain Home with possession of the ball got taken out right outside of the box, and the Lady Bombers were given an indirect kick instead of a chance to go for goal directly. It seems like most of the infractions I've seen that haven't resulted in penalty kicks have been penalized with indirect free kicks.

Has there been a rule change to have more indirect kicks in the high school game?

Offline pantherdad

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2019, 07:44:20 am »
If the player with the ball was "taken out" outside the box, it would still be a direct free kick; any foul that is a result of contact is usually direct. Not sure what happened in the scenario that you described that would result in an indirect kick

Offline $aintMaximu$

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #71 on: April 18, 2019, 08:15:42 am »

Offline Arbitro

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #72 on: April 18, 2019, 02:29:50 pm »
The majority of indirect free kicks come from either offside or dangerous play, with a few for obstruction (no contact) or illegal touch by the keeper in their PA.  You don't notice the ones from offside because not many people try to kick the ball directly into the goal from the other end of the field.  Dangerous play (high kicks in traffic, low headers in traffic, playing the ball on the ground in traffic, any other similar play that endangers the safety of a player) can happen anywhere on the field.  A dangerous play violation almost never involves contact between players.  It's hard to imagine an indirect free kick for a player being "taken out" unless it was for another violation that happened first.

Offline Arkiesoccer

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #73 on: April 23, 2019, 09:58:43 am »
Penalty run up question – was at a local youth practice and the coach was explaining the PK rules and he mentioned that you could start your run-up, stop, back up and then have a go at it (which you can do on a free kick).  I told him that once you start your PK run up you had to keep moving forward and continue on through with the kick or it would be disallowed.  Which is the way I have always heard the rules explained – he mentioned that it didn’t use to be that way.  So of course I was questioning if I had been wrong all along so I took a look at the LOTG and it is honestly not very clear concerning the run up – it mentions illegal feinting but then that is not defined anywhere.  Any other interpretations or guidance?

Offline chaoslord

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #74 on: April 23, 2019, 11:07:56 am »
Penalty run up question – was at a local youth practice and the coach was explaining the PK rules and he mentioned that you could start your run-up, stop, back up and then have a go at it (which you can do on a free kick).  I told him that once you start your PK run up you had to keep moving forward and continue on through with the kick or it would be disallowed.  Which is the way I have always heard the rules explained – he mentioned that it didn’t use to be that way.  So of course I was questioning if I had been wrong all along so I took a look at the LOTG and it is honestly not very clear concerning the run up – it mentions illegal feinting but then that is not defined anywhere.  Any other interpretations or guidance?

I know you didn't specifically ask about NFHS, but since we are in the high school forum I'll cover the differences between USSF and NFHS on this.

USSF: Stopping in the run up is fine as long as the run up is not yet completed. Backing up starts to get into a gray area. Illegal feinting is faking to kick the ball after having stopped the run up. It kinda gets covered with

"Q2: Why is illegal feinting by the penalty kicker an IDFK even when the player scores?
A player who deliberately stops at the end of their run and then feints to gain an advantage is deliberately breaking the Law."

This guidance is nearly a decade old at this point, but a memorandum put out by USSF when the Laws changed to address illegal feinting said "Players may feint during the run to the ball (so long as this does not involve, in the opinion of the referee, excessive changes in direction or similar delays in the taking of the kick) but feinting actions once the run to the ball is complete are now to be considered a violation of Law 14 by the kicker." I don't believe there has since been any superseding guidance since then and USSF's Dropbox won't load for me to double check but I don't remember anything put out about this in any of the Futuro courses either. I won't lie to you, you will get some referees who will shut down a stop in USSF, but the way the laws are written today, stops are fine if the run up isn't finished and they aren't excessive in nature.

NFHS: "The player taking the penalty kick is permitted to use a stutter-step or a hesitation move provided there is no stopping and there is continuous movement toward the ball." 

Offline Go Postal

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #75 on: April 23, 2019, 11:51:36 pm »
So, clean tackle or dive?

Offline $aintMaximu$

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #76 on: April 25, 2019, 11:28:37 am »
So, clean tackle or dive?


Looks clean to me...

Offline AirWarren

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #77 on: April 25, 2019, 02:06:02 pm »
So, clean tackle or dive?


Looks clean to me.

FIFA 2019 would disagree with me though....

Got a red card last night on a clean tackle.

Offline VHSCoach2

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #78 on: April 25, 2019, 02:37:14 pm »
Looks clean to me.

FIFA 2019 would disagree with me though....

Got a red card last night on a clean tackle.

I played around on FIFA to see if any discrepancy was shown between clean and dirty tackles. More often than not, the algorithm in the game gives a straight red for any kind of tackle, clean or not.

Offline Buck183

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #79 on: May 02, 2019, 09:10:52 am »
Scenario in game last night.   

Team A is attacking on Team B's goal late in the game with under a minute to play.  Score is tied 1-1.  Team B defends attack inside the box with players going all over the place.  Team B clears the ball to the outside and the midfielder is carrying the ball aggressively up the field on the sideline for a late game counter attack.  Team A has two players down on opposite side of Team B's box with each of them holding their leg and rolling around.  (this happened during original attack on goal)  Team B has advantage and numbers moving the ball quickly down the side of the field.  Time left in regulation is .16 seconds.  At this point in time center ref sees the two players from Team A rolling around the on the ground holding their legs and proceeds to blow the whistle and stop play. 

Given the amount of time left in regulation and the score, was this the right call or not? 

Offline jimmyt

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #80 on: May 02, 2019, 09:15:33 am »
Was Team A Siloam and Team B Russellville?

We would need to see the mayhem on the original attack to see if there were any possible real injuries or if it appeared to just be stalling. If it seemed like stalling, let them play...

Offline Buck183

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #81 on: May 02, 2019, 09:18:31 am »
Was Team A Siloam and Team B Russellville?

We would need to see the mayhem on the original attack to see if there were any possible real injuries or if it appeared to just be stalling. If it seemed like stalling, let them play...

LOL...opposite.  Team A Russellville, and Team B Siloam. 

I'll add more to the confusion.  Clock was stopped.  Both players had trainers attending to them, only one of them had to leave the field when all was said and done. 

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #82 on: May 02, 2019, 09:29:36 am »
LOL...opposite.  Team A Russellville, and Team B Siloam. 

I'll add more to the confusion.  Clock was stopped.  Both players had trainers attending to them, only one of them had to leave the field when all was said and done.

Both players should have to leave the game if bench personnel attended to them on the field. 

It is hard to say in this situation whether or not play should (or should not) have been stopped.
But I do want to refer back to this message: https://forums.fearlessfriday.com/index.php?topic=158924.msg3693005#msg3693005
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 09:32:07 am by sevenof400 »

Offline Sir Alex

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #83 on: May 04, 2019, 09:32:08 am »
Wish that the NFHS rules committee would stop worrying about uniforms and start focusing in on players hitting/charging players after they are shooting or playing a longer ball. Many times these players are left in a vulnerable position where they can not brace for the hit or the fall. IMO it should be a cautionable offense and should be a point of emphasis to protect the players. 

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #84 on: May 05, 2019, 09:51:59 pm »
Is there any limitations in high school soccer on how many times that you can put substitutes in and also any limitations of how many players?
Can you also answer the same questions for club, college and pro?

Offline Buck183

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #85 on: May 06, 2019, 09:12:58 am »
Is there any limitations in high school soccer on how many times that you can put substitutes in and also any limitations of how many players?
Can you also answer the same questions for club, college and pro?

I am not an official, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I'm pretty sure one could watch the Mountain Home boy's team and ascertain that there isn't a limit on the number of substitutions allowed in a high school game by the AAA.  :)

Offline Arkiesoccer

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #86 on: May 06, 2019, 09:50:16 am »
Most youth club soccer leagues don’t have substitution rules. There are several clubs that participate in the NPL and there is a substitution limit of seven for each half and once you are subbed out in a half, you are not allowed to renter in the same half.

NCAA allows one reentry and it can only be in the second half

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #87 on: May 06, 2019, 10:24:28 pm »
Is there any way AAA can address the issue of handballs in high school . As a formerly certified ref and also a soccer player from toddler to college, and as a fan now who has watched multiple games every season there is a complete lack of understanding what a handball is. I would say that about 85-90% of handballs called in high school are the wrong call. There is very little to no understanding the difference between voluntary/involuntary with regards to hand placement. Unfortunately these missed calls very often determine the game and create a scoring opportunity for a team that had no chance of scoring due to an inadvertant handball on the edge of the box. I know that one problem is that there is a shortage of referees and also retraining them would be very difficult and expensive. In my honest opinion I think the rules should be changed to make the penalty box that awards a penalty smaller. Maybe an infraction in the 6 would constitute a pk while an infraction in the 18 would be a direct free kick. It is just frustrating as a fan to watch games be determined by a handball that may or may not have been a handball, in a position where the other team had no chance of scoring and now they get a chance at a free goal with their best player getting to shoot.

Offline RazorDad

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #88 on: May 07, 2019, 12:25:58 am »
Is there any way AAA can address the issue of handballs in high school . As a formerly certified ref and also a soccer player from toddler to college, and as a fan now who has watched multiple games every season there is a complete lack of understanding what a handball is. I would say that about 85-90% of handballs called in high school are the wrong call. There is very little to no understanding the difference between voluntary/involuntary with regards to hand placement. Unfortunately these missed calls very often determine the game and create a scoring opportunity for a team that had no chance of scoring due to an inadvertant handball on the edge of the box. I know that one problem is that there is a shortage of referees and also retraining them would be very difficult and expensive. In my honest opinion I think the rules should be changed to make the penalty box that awards a penalty smaller. Maybe an infraction in the 6 would constitute a pk while an infraction in the 18 would be a direct free kick. It is just frustrating as a fan to watch games be determined by a handball that may or may not have been a handball, in a position where the other team had no chance of scoring and now they get a chance at a free goal with their best player getting to shoot.

Welcome to the boards. You might as well get used to the bad calls and no calls.

While there are some great crews out there, there are also some terrible ones.  ARs that don’t understand offsides or are too slow to be in position to actually decide, bad handball calls like you talk about,  Centers that override good ARs that spot fouls, Centers that let games get out of control with dirty and dangerous play, etc. 

Just pray when you do draw one of the terrible ones. they do not let the game get out of control and cause a season (or career) ending injury to one of your players, like what happened earlier in our season this year.

Offline Brownclown

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #89 on: May 07, 2019, 09:54:57 am »
Welcome to the boards. You might as well get used to the bad calls and no calls.

While there are some great crews out there, there are also some terrible ones.  ARs that don’t understand offsides or are too slow to be in position to actually decide, bad handball calls like you talk about,  Centers that override good ARs that spot fouls, Centers that let games get out of control with dirty and dangerous play, etc. 

Just pray when you do draw one of the terrible ones. they do not let the game get out of control and cause a season (or career) ending injury to one of your players, like what happened earlier in our season this year.
I totally agree.  I can live with a few bad calls, but when the crew lets the game get out of control physically THAT'S when I have a problem.  Otherwise, I don't really care too much.

Offline chaoslord

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #90 on: May 07, 2019, 10:19:24 am »
Is there any way AAA can address the issue of handballs in high school . As a formerly certified ref and also a soccer player from toddler to college, and as a fan now who has watched multiple games every season there is a complete lack of understanding what a handball is. I would say that about 85-90% of handballs called in high school are the wrong call. There is very little to no understanding the difference between voluntary/involuntary with regards to hand placement. Unfortunately these missed calls very often determine the game and create a scoring opportunity for a team that had no chance of scoring due to an inadvertant handball on the edge of the box. I know that one problem is that there is a shortage of referees and also retraining them would be very difficult and expensive. In my honest opinion I think the rules should be changed to make the penalty box that awards a penalty smaller. Maybe an infraction in the 6 would constitute a pk while an infraction in the 18 would be a direct free kick. It is just frustrating as a fan to watch games be determined by a handball that may or may not have been a handball, in a position where the other team had no chance of scoring and now they get a chance at a free goal with their best player getting to shoot.

Here's the thing about handling: You are exactly right, but if everyone else in the stadium believes something to be handling, you can start to lose the game if you let it go. I call less handling fouls than most referees in the state by my estimation and it doesn't matter that my decisions may be correct on that, I don't get anything out of it because everyone thinks I got it wrong. I've started adjusting my game because calling something that isn't handling but that all 22 players think is handling helps me a lot more than showing off that I know the Rules so well.

Here is NFHS 12-2, in it's fullness: "A player shall be penalized for deliberately handling, carrying, striking or propelling the ball with a hand or arm. Exception: Goalkeeper when the ball is within his/her own penalty area."

It doesn't say anything about the player gaining an advantage because of the handling but I have had coaches, players, and, unfortunately, even referees use this to say why the believe something was deliberate handling. The expectations of just about every player and coach is at odds with the Rules provided by NFHS or the Laws provided by IFAB, so much so that the Laws of the Game are being rewritten to try to bring them more in line with the expectations. And then you add in high level instruction about things like "taking a risk" which may or may not trickle down to the referees, so more so than most decisions, what is considered handling will probably vary just about more than anything else from referee to referee.

For anyone curious, here is what the updated Laws of the Game will say about handling.

It is an offence if a player:
• deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball
• gains possession/control of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then:
* scores in the opponents’ goal
* creates a goal-scoring opportunity
• scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper

It is usually an offence if a player:
• touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
* the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
* the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm)

The above offences apply even if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close.

Except for the above offences, it is not usually an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:
• directly from the player’s own head or body (including the foot)
• directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
•if the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger
• when a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body

Offline Striker

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #91 on: May 07, 2019, 12:32:57 pm »
I completely agree with everything you have said. I think there are two answers to your predicament. The first is to change the fans expectations. The only way to do that is to call the game correctly for long enough so that they realize what the correct call is. Also I think the other way is to be vocal about it. This is twofold. First is to not be afraid to answer questions from the players. I see so many referees yell at players and even card players who are asking why they just got called for a foul or a handball. If a referee can not explain to a player what they did wrong then they probably made the wrong call. The second is to be more vocal during the play. The best move a ref can use is to yell “play-on” at the top of their lungs when a ball is handled but does not constitute a handball.  This lets the players and the fans know that you have seen what has happened and decided that it was not worthy of an infraction. This cuts down on the complaining a lot.  I just don’t think it is fair to the players to bend to the expectations of fans and change the laws of a game just because it makes life easier. That is just my opinion

Offline Go Postal

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #92 on: May 07, 2019, 01:01:25 pm »
A lot of pitches are usually on schools football fields.  Can someone explain the soccer markings and their purpose?  For instance, the center circle, the goalie box, etc.

Offline Arbitro

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #93 on: May 07, 2019, 01:02:17 pm »
I completely agree with everything you have said. I think there are two answers to your predicament. The first is to change the fans expectations. The only way to do that is to call the game correctly for long enough so that they realize what the correct call is. Also I think the other way is to be vocal about it. This is twofold. First is to not be afraid to answer questions from the players. I see so many referees yell at players and even card players who are asking why they just got called for a foul or a handball. If a referee can not explain to a player what they did wrong then they probably made the wrong call.


You are probably right about people eventually learning, but it may be a long and painful process.  Unfortunately some referees are still likely to take the easy way out, particularly if their knowledge is thin. 

Quote
The second is to be more vocal during the play.  The best move a ref can use is to yell “play-on” at the top of their lungs when a ball is handled but does not constitute a handball.  This lets the players and the fans know that you have seen what has happened and decided that it was not worthy of an infraction. This cuts down on the complaining a lot.  I just don’t think it is fair to the players to bend to the expectations of fans and change the laws of a game just because it makes life easier. That is just my opinion

In soccer referee speak, "play on" is reserved for advantage situations and should not be used as you suggested.  I've used "keep playing" or even "not deliberate" to indicate that hand and ball contact did not qualify as handling.

Referees should communicate with players during the game, but they can't afford to get into a lengthy discussion over calls or the game will grind to a halt.  A few words in explanation can help clear up confusion, but often players will still disagree and a longer discussion can actually be counterproductive and even end up in dissent (caution).

Offline Arbitro

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #94 on: May 07, 2019, 01:38:43 pm »
A lot of pitches are usually on schools football fields.  Can someone explain the soccer markings and their purpose?  For instance, the center circle, the goalie box, etc.
OK, I'll take a stab at it.

The center circle is there to define how close an opponent can be during a kickoff (10 yds).  The same is true for the penalty arc (also called the "D") at the top of the penalty area.  On a penalty kick all players except the kicker have to be outside the penalty area (18 yd box) and 10 yds or more away from the penalty spot.  The arc defines that 10 yds since the spot is only 6 yds from the top of the penalty area.

The penalty area (18 yd box) defines the area where the keeper can legally touch the ball with their hands.  Also, any free kick coming out (goal kick, defensive free kick) has to leave the penalty area before it can be touched by any other player.  Of course any defensive direct kick foul that occurs inside the penalty area results in a penalty kick.

The goal area (6 yd box) serves two purposes.  Goal kicks must be taken from anywhere within the goal area (including on the goal line).  Other free kicks for the defense that result from a foul inside the goal area can be taken from anywhere inside the goal area.  The other purpose involves indirect kick violations by the defense that occur inside the goal area (dangerous play and a keeper touching a ball passed to them by a teammate are two examples).  The resulting indirect free kick for the attacking team is spotted on the top of the goal area (6 yds from the goal line) closest to the spot of the violation).

Corner kicks must be taken from anywhere inside or on the corner arc.

Penalty kicks are taken with the ball placed on the penalty mark.

Goal lines and touch lines (side lines) define the area of play.  The center line divides the field in half, which is useful for kickoffs and determining where offside begins to be a consideration.  Kickoffs start at the center mark.

Occasionally you will see a small line perpendicular to the goal line that is 10 yds from the corner.  That is an aid to identify how close a defender can stand on a corner kick.

Miss any?

Offline Go Postal

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #95 on: May 07, 2019, 08:17:05 pm »
When a team kicks off from the center circle, does it have to be in the middle of that circle or can it be to the left or right more?  This question came up in a previous game from a fan.

Offline chaoslord

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #96 on: May 07, 2019, 08:34:47 pm »
Arbitro you forgot the technical arhahahahaha, oh man, if only.

100% agree about using "Not deliberate". Ran into an issue on the first time I was in the middle of a U17 boys game and I turned a handling appeal down. "No! No! No!" I shouted, being right on top of the play. "What do you mean no?" the coach yelled in response and then a few more times as play went back the other way. "Not deliberate" is still very concise and passes along the info needed. (In a similar vein, I definitely like "keep going" a lot more than "no foul" or "nothing there" for other issues I ran into when I was a younger official.)

Postal, kickoff is supposed to be in the middle of the circle. It can't be a useful guide to keeping opponents 10 yards away from the ball if you shade a few yards to one side or the other! There is supposed to be a spot defined at the center of the field for the ball to be placed on. In the absence of one, as long as they're reasonable I'm good.

Offline sssuperpantherfan2

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #97 on: May 10, 2019, 10:56:03 am »
If time is stopped for an injured player, shouldn’t the injured player leave the field before play continues?

Offline Arbitro

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #98 on: May 10, 2019, 11:09:58 am »
If a coach or trainer is called onto the field to tend an injured player, the player must leave the field.  Usually the referee makes a quick check on the player (while the clock is running) and if they decide that the player needs attention the clock is stopped and the coach is beckoned onto the field.  Generally if the player is going to remain on the field the clock does not stop, but I can imagine a situation where the referee might want to take a little more time evaluating the player without burning game time so they stop the clock briefly.

Offline chaoslord

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #99 on: May 10, 2019, 12:42:52 pm »
If time is stopped for an injured player, shouldn’t the injured player leave the field before play continues?

Yes.

3-3-2-b-2 “If the referee stops the clock for an apparent injury to a field player or goalkeeper, the field player or goalkeeper will have to leave the field.”

 

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