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Author Topic: Ask the soccer referees....  (Read 4910 times)

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Offline Arbitro

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #100 on: May 10, 2019, 01:20:24 pm »
Yes.

3-3-2-b-2 “If the referee stops the clock for an apparent injury to a field player or goalkeeper, the field player or goalkeeper will have to leave the field.”
That's what I get for not confirming...

Offline chaoslord

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #101 on: May 10, 2019, 01:45:32 pm »
That's what I get for not confirming...

It was a pretty recent change (last year maybe?)  and I’ve never seen a ref stop the clock without then following up by bringing the trainer/coach on so it’s easy to forget that they moved it from calling coaches on to stopping the clock being the trigger.

Offline Bench Warmer Rv

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #102 on: May 10, 2019, 04:11:38 pm »
Can a ref give a yellow/red card for a keeper running into a player after he has picked up the ball? I saw this in the Siloam vs lakeside game earlier. 

Offline Arbitro

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #103 on: May 10, 2019, 05:51:40 pm »
Can a ref give a yellow/red card for a keeper running into a player after he has picked up the ball? I saw this in the Siloam vs lakeside game earlier.
What was the restart after the card?  That might give some insight into what the call was. If the referee determined that the keeper could have stopped but instead chose to continue his run and deliberately collide with the player, that could be considered misconduct. Not saying that’s what happened, but it’s a possibility.

Offline sevenof400

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #104 on: May 10, 2019, 05:59:47 pm »
Can a ref give a yellow/red card for a keeper running into a player after he has picked up the ball? I saw this in the Siloam vs lakeside game earlier.

Could there have been something said - foul language perhaps?

Offline chaoslord

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #105 on: May 10, 2019, 09:58:05 pm »
Can a ref give a yellow/red card for a keeper running into a player after he has picked up the ball? I saw this in the Siloam vs lakeside game earlier. 

Saw the post right before I went to the movies so I've been thinking it over for a few hours. The short answer, of course, is yes.

There's a famous clip of Schumacher in 82 blowing a player up running out from his goal. Here is that video. Now, Schumacher doesn't collect the ball there, but I would think most referees today would probably have a red card here even if he did collect the ball due to the wild nature he came running out at.

THAT SAID, keepers are still given a good amount of leeway. Some of yall may remember Neuer jumping over/through Higuain in the 2014 World Cup final. I remember watching this play get debated in circles on a couple of referee forums. The majority opinion was no foul, and I believe that most referees polled today would still have no foul.

NFHS says that "a player who displays reckless play" is cautionable, and that "exhibiting violent conduct" or "committing serious foul play...and uses disproportionate and unnecessary force while playing for the ball". If, in the opinion of the referee, those boxes are ticked, you can go yellow or red. But without a better description or a video, it's hard to analyze what the referee did and pass judgment on it. I think it'd have to be fairly egregious to warrant a card, personally.

Here's one last clip from the 98 world cup with a goalkeeper and player collision that I'll leave without any of my own commentary.

I'm with Arbitro in that I really, really, really want to know what the restart was. I hope the referee got it right! I'll admit that I'm a little nervous about this part.

Here's something interesting as I thought this over, although this is a slight derail: I'm having a hard time envisioning a foul where a keeper comes out punching/jumping for the ball that I go yellow on. Obviously if they come out sliding or playing the ball on the ground you can find a yellow, but like, take the Neuer example. That's a pretty typical keeper jump to punch away. If you land on it's a foul on Neuer, I think you have to go red instead of yellow if you are going for a card, right? And I think that may be why, traditionally, keepers are given leeway. Jumping with your fists to punch the ball is almost always going to endanger the safety of an opponent, as is jumping with a knee up. If you call a foul, you're going to have to strongly consider sending the keeper off. I just don't know that it can be done recklessly - it's either no foul, careless, or endangering I think given the particulars of how keepers jump/punch.

Offline Arbitro

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #106 on: May 10, 2019, 10:19:50 pm »
I actually like the language possibility. NFHS allows cautioning a player (yellow card) for incidental foul language as opposed to red for offensive, insulting, or abusive language. So if the players collided and the keeper said something vulgar (but not necessarily directed at the other player) the referee could have given him the yellow. Hypothetically speaking of course.

Offline chaoslord

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #107 on: May 10, 2019, 10:47:17 pm »
I actually like the language possibility. NFHS allows cautioning a player (yellow card) for incidental foul language as opposed to red for offensive, insulting, or abusive language. So if the players collided and the keeper said something vulgar (but not necessarily directed at the other player) the referee could have given him the yellow. Hypothetically speaking of course.

Agree. More I think about it, seems the most likely, but a brave call to make in the playoffs, that's for sure.

Offline Bench Warmer Rv

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #108 on: May 10, 2019, 11:09:43 pm »
Saw the post right before I went to the movies so I've been thinking it over for a few hours. The short answer, of course, is yes.

There's a famous clip of Schumacher in 82 blowing a player up running out from his goal. Here is that video. Now, Schumacher doesn't collect the ball there, but I would think most referees today would probably have a red card here even if he did collect the ball due to the wild nature he came running out at.

THAT SAID, keepers are still given a good amount of leeway. Some of yall may remember Neuer jumping over/through Higuain in the 2014 World Cup final. I remember watching this play get debated in circles on a couple of referee forums. The majority opinion was no foul, and I believe that most referees polled today would still have no foul.

NFHS says that "a player who displays reckless play" is cautionable, and that "exhibiting violent conduct" or "committing serious foul play...and uses disproportionate and unnecessary force while playing for the ball". If, in the opinion of the referee, those boxes are ticked, you can go yellow or red. But without a better description or a video, it's hard to analyze what the referee did and pass judgment on it. I think it'd have to be fairly egregious to warrant a card, personally.

Here's one last clip from the 98 world cup with a goalkeeper and player collision that I'll leave without any of my own commentary.

I'm with Arbitro in that I really, really, really want to know what the restart was. I hope the referee got it right! I'll admit that I'm a little nervous about this part.

Here's something interesting as I thought this over, although this is a slight derail: I'm having a hard time envisioning a foul where a keeper comes out punching/jumping for the ball that I go yellow on. Obviously if they come out sliding or playing the ball on the ground you can find a yellow, but like, take the Neuer example. That's a pretty typical keeper jump to punch away. If you land on it's a foul on Neuer, I think you have to go red instead of yellow if you are going for a card, right? And I think that may be why, traditionally, keepers are given leeway. Jumping with your fists to punch the ball is almost always going to endanger the safety of an opponent, as is jumping with a knee up. If you call a foul, you're going to have to strongly consider sending the keeper off. I just don't know that it can be done recklessly - it's either no foul, careless, or endangering I think given the particulars of how keepers jump/punch.

The keeper came out to collect the ball and the player was running into his path so he just decided to go into the collision. the ref gave the goalkeeper a yellow but then gave the goalkeeper a free kick I am not exactly sure what words were exchanged.

Offline chaoslord

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #109 on: May 10, 2019, 11:20:01 pm »
The keeper came out to collect the ball and the player was running into his path so he just decided to go into the collision. the ref gave the goalkeeper a yellow but then gave the goalkeeper a free kick I am not exactly sure what words were exchanged.

Look at the big brains on seven and Arbitro. This sounds like "called a foul on the attacker for the charge, yellow for incidental foul language after". Yall nailed it!

Did the ref make the goalkeeper come out of the game?

Offline Bench Warmer Rv

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #110 on: May 10, 2019, 11:21:16 pm »
Look at the big brains on seven and Arbitro. This sounds like "called a foul on the attacker for the charge, yellow for incidental foul language after". Yall nailed it!

Did the ref make the goalkeeper come out of the game?

Nope the keeper was allowed to stay on

Offline slawdawg millionaire

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #111 on: May 10, 2019, 11:47:56 pm »
I got another scenario that made me question a referee. In the Batesville-Robinson match, Batesville's player made a good move while getting pulled back and got into the box. He then got wiped out on a slide tackle from behind, and the ref brings the play back to the first foul outside of the box instead of awarding the penalty. The ref even gestured like a pullback occurred after awarding the free kick outside of the box.

Do you think he just didn't deem the slide tackle to be a foul? I've seen my fair share of legal and illegal slide tackles, and the play in question was worthy of a yellow card, although most high school refs tend to not book fouls that result in penalties. Or is it a really bad rule in soccer to go back to the first foul even though the second would've been much more beneficial to the fouled party?

Offline WillC

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #112 on: May 11, 2019, 12:41:06 am »
I got another scenario that made me question a referee. In the Batesville-Robinson match, Batesville's player made a good move while getting pulled back and got into the box. He then got wiped out on a slide tackle from behind, and the ref brings the play back to the first foul outside of the box instead of awarding the penalty. The ref even gestured like a pullback occurred after awarding the free kick outside of the box.

Do you think he just didn't deem the slide tackle to be a foul? I've seen my fair share of legal and illegal slide tackles, and the play in question was worthy of a yellow card, although most high school refs tend to not book fouls that result in penalties. Or is it a really bad rule in soccer to go back to the first foul even though the second would've been much more beneficial to the fouled party?
First off, I'm taking your word for it that the slide tackle was a foul. It's always possible that the referee (correctly or not) judged it to be clean. That would make the answer simple as to why he pulled it back for the first foul.

On the assumption that it was a foul, was the slide tackle performed by the same player that was holding? If so, was there a distinct separation between the two actions? I ask because my first thought was that maybe the referee interpreted the play as a continuation of the same foul. If that indeed was the case, then he would be correct to pull it back out of the penalty area.

If he applied advantage and observed a completely separate foul afterward, he should have awarded the penalty. Of course, like any other discussion on this topic, I would have to see it to be sure.

Offline chaoslord

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #113 on: May 11, 2019, 08:31:15 am »
Nope the keeper was allowed to stay on

Uh oh.

Do you think he just didn't deem the slide tackle to be a foul? I've seen my fair share of legal and illegal slide tackles, and the play in question was worthy of a yellow card, although most high school refs tend to not book fouls that result in penalties. Or is it a really bad rule in soccer to go back to the first foul even though the second would've been much more beneficial to the fouled party?

I'm guessing that this is the case, that the referee decided it was not a foul. If the referee thought the tackle was a foul they should have awarded a penalty kick.

I ask because my first thought was that maybe the referee interpreted the play as a continuation of the same foul. If that indeed was the case, then he would be correct to pull it back out of the penalty area.

I'm curious about this. I know in USSF land a hold that begins outside the penalty area but continues into it results in a penalty kick (Law 12, "If a defender starts holding an attacker outside the penalty area and continues holding inside the penalty area, the referee must award a penalty kick."), not it being pulled back outside. While this is not exactly the same thing since we are considering "hold and then tackle" to be one continuous thing, I think the same principle would apply. I also know this is not USSF but lacking a rule to the contrary on it, I think following the same guidance is a good way to go. Can you elaborate a little further on what you mean with this?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 08:32:51 am by chaoslord »

Online Ladyfan

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #114 on: May 11, 2019, 12:45:06 pm »
Noisemakers- are cowbells, drums, and vuvuzelas, etc. allowed?

Offline Arbitro

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #115 on: May 11, 2019, 12:57:29 pm »
Uh oh.
Uh oh is right.  Any player receiving a yellow card has to leave the field and cannot return until the next legal substitution opportunity.  I could maybe imagine a referee pulling out the card but not actually displaying it and cautioning the player, sort of as a threat, but that would be confusing to everyone else and not a very good idea.

Offline Arbitro

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #116 on: May 11, 2019, 01:28:33 pm »
Noisemakers- are cowbells, drums, and vuvuzelas, etc. allowed?
The AAA handbook addresses that for regional and state events:
Quote
Artificial Noisemakers. Artificial noisemakers shall not be used at any indoor event. Artificial noisemakers are items such as, but not limited to, megaphones, air horns, bells, whistles, clickers, thunder sticks, explosive devices, tape/CD players, and radios. Noisemakers that require an external power source are not allowed at benefit games, regular season events, and post-season events.
So the noisemakers you mentioned appear to be permitted at soccer games, but powered megaphones would not be.  I didn’t find any other mention.

Offline Buck183

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #117 on: May 11, 2019, 11:36:55 pm »
Can a ref give a yellow/red card for a keeper running into a player after he has picked up the ball? I saw this in the Siloam vs lakeside game earlier.

The boys just returned from Searcy about an hour ago.  One of the players came by the house just now and elaborated a little on this series. 

He said the penalty was for intentional physical contact by the keeper.  He said there was no language involved in the scenario that constituted any infraction. 

Offline chaoslord

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #118 on: May 12, 2019, 08:27:48 am »
The boys just returned from Searcy about an hour ago.  One of the players came by the house just now and elaborated a little on this series. 

He said the penalty was for intentional physical contact by the keeper.  He said there was no language involved in the scenario that constituted any infraction. 

Oh no. No no no. Please be wrong about this.

(To be clear, Buck, I believe you, but if this is right... hoo boy)

Offline sevenof400

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #119 on: May 12, 2019, 08:30:17 am »
Oh no. No no no. Please be wrong about this.

(To be clear, Buck, I believe you, but if this is right... hoo boy)

I can hear / see / feel the cringe coming from Chaoslord as he read the previous.....

Offline MS_soccer

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #120 on: May 12, 2019, 09:03:08 am »
Noisemakers- are cowbells, drums, and vuvuzelas, etc. allowed?


There were signs posted outside the stadium that read NO ARTIFICIAL NOISEMAKERS ALLOWED.

Offline sssuperpantherfan2

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #121 on: May 12, 2019, 09:33:52 am »
Oh no. No no no. Please be wrong about this.

(To be clear, Buck, I believe you, but if this is right... hoo boy)

I was there, the GK did a retaliatory check back to an opponent that that made initial contact, the ref saw on the GK retaliation. It wasn’t that big of a check or initial contact, nobody went to the ground.  The ref should have gave a warning, the ref spoke to the SS coach and either waved the yellow or allowed him to stay.  GK are always getting some contact and we were all confused by the refs action since he was at midfield and made the call.

Offline Arbitro

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #122 on: May 12, 2019, 11:04:19 am »
First a couple of basics:
Referees have to call what they see, not what they think might have happened.
Up until play has restarted, any call can be changed. Once play restarts (with the referee’s consent) the call stands.
The referee can get information from the rest of the referee crew to make sure the call is correct.

If we assume that no one screwed up, here is what might have happened. The referee saw the keeper initiate contact with the opponent, and from his angle it looked aggressive enough to merit a card. He then showed the card to the keeper which would have required the keeper to leave the field. Assuming the keeper was still in the penalty area, the restart would then have to be either a penalty kick if he thought the contact occurred during the challenge for the ball or possibly an indirect free kick for the attacking team if the keeper misconduct was separate from the possession play. Since neither the keeper leaving nor the attacking team getting a kick happened, the call had to have been changed. Either the referee got more information from the assistant referee or he reviewed in his own mind what he saw and realized that the initial contact was made by the attacking player. A foul by the attacker before any extra action by the keeper would change the restart to a free kick coming out for the defense. With the extra information, the referee then downgraded the punishment to keeper to a warning and rescinded the card. That would result in the keeper remaining on the field.

Is that what happened?  I don’t know, but for the sake of the referee and the teams playing I hope it was something similar.

Offline chaoslord

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #123 on: May 12, 2019, 11:24:32 am »
Good post, Arbitro. I landed at a slightly different “fingers crossed” interpretation:

*Referee sees the contact and decides “free kick coming out”
*In the moment to making that decision and getting the whistle up to blow, the keeper does his retaliation. It probably now looks like the referee is stopping play for the keeper.
*Referee cautions the keeper for the retaliation, but this doesn’t change the restart.

I’m not touching the rest of the caution part, haha.

Offline Buck183

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #124 on: May 12, 2019, 11:27:13 am »
Oh no. No no no. Please be wrong about this.

(To be clear, Buck, I believe you, but if this is right... hoo boy)

I say we take it with a grain of salt.  Two reasons....

He wasn’t close to the play to be able to say that with certainty.
We are talking about a he said she said scenario.

I didn’t think it to be an end all description myself. In hindsight, I probably shouldn’t have said anything at all on here.

Offline chaoslord

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #125 on: May 12, 2019, 11:35:33 am »
I say we take it with a grain of salt.  Two reasons....

He wasn’t close to the play to be able to say that with certainty.
We are talking about a he said she said scenario.

I didn’t think it to be an end all description myself. In hindsight, I probably shouldn’t have said anything at all on here.

I am glad for your input on it! Thr players story was probably right. My little freak out is if that was the reason for the yellow card I was worried about the direction the free kick should have gone. I should have waited until after breakfast and thought about it some more.

Offline Buck183

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Re: Ask the soccer referees....
« Reply #126 on: May 12, 2019, 12:00:11 pm »
I am glad for your input on it! Thr players story was probably right. My little freak out is if that was the reason for the yellow card I was worried about the direction the free kick should have gone. I should have waited until after breakfast and thought about it some more.

All good.  At the end of the day I can say without hesitation that your involvement here is always appreciated. You have been both an asset and an ally to all of us. 

In my mind the truth in the story lies somewhere between all the descriptions given here on this forum

 

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