Welcome to FearlessFriday.com! Today is Sunday, March 29th, 2020.
Jonesboro Westside's Logan McPherson is Week 8 Player of the Week
Strong's Derrion Davis named Fearless Friday Player of the Week
Last week was our last week of Thursday Night televised games. Thanks for watching. Contact Lanny if your team wants on TV next season.
Conference season is underway. Be sure to check the Standings tab.
The season nears and we have you covered with the new look Fearless Friday Home Page. Forums remain the same.
FearlessFriday Thursday Night Football returns. Springdale Har-ber @ Pulaski Academy Week 0, Lakeside @ Lake Hamilton week 1.
AAA has reset the way Basketball Finals are done. See the thread on Killer Crossover Board

Author Topic: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time  (Read 71560 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #100 on: June 14, 2011, 03:46:49 pm »
The 77-78 Nuggets with Issel, Thompson, and Jones were great.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #101 on: June 14, 2011, 04:23:02 pm »
I always thought that had Larry Brown stayed they might have gotten over the hump. Doug Moe was okay but Brown really got them to challenge themselves and developed team chemistry.

Offline AB™

  • America's Team
  • Fearless Friday Elite
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,547
  • Karma: +829/-806
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #102 on: June 14, 2011, 05:41:10 pm »
See, even with the great ABA players that lost most of their prime to the ABA, Issel isn't a name I've ever heard mentioned in as high regards as Julius Erving, David Thompson, and George Gervin. 

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #103 on: June 14, 2011, 05:57:15 pm »
I know. He was second fiddle to Thompson in Denver but still great. He and Thompson played well together under Larry Brown. Brown had really built something there but left.   You will just have to find some old playoff footage of Issel and decide for yourself. I assure you that he was a wonderful player.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #104 on: June 14, 2011, 06:55:11 pm »
Gervin is another who typically gets a bad rap. But here is how close he was:
79 lost in conference finals to Washington at Washington by 2 pts in game 7.
1978-79 26 SAS NBA 14 513 158 295   84 104 33 82 35 27 15 40 51 400 .536  .808 36.6 28.6 5.9 2.5 are his playoff stats that season.

8 Fri, May 4, 1979 @ Washington Bullets W  118 97
9 Sun, May 6, 1979 @ Washington Bullets L  95 115
10 Wed, May 9, 1979  Washington Bullets W  116 114 
11 Fri, May 11, 1979  Washington Bullets W  118 102
12 Sun, May 13, 1979 @ Washington Bullets L  103 107
13 Wed, May 16, 1979  Washington Bullets L  100 108
14 Fri, May 18, 1979 @ Washington Bullets L  105 107

Lost '82 conference finals to Magic's Lakers
Lost '83 conference finals to Magic's Lakers

Gervin lost to Moses Malone-led Houston Rockets in a couple of those seasons as well. Iceman was a great player, too.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #105 on: June 16, 2011, 11:17:33 pm »
Barry in '75, Hakeem in '93, some say Duncan in '03, and now Dirk in 2011 are all very impressive title runs because their respective teams simply because their supporting cast didn't consist of a lot else. 

RATTLER, I'm curious as to why you have Issel ranked so high?  I know he scored nearly 30,000 points in the ABA and NBA combined, but I've never seen him ranked in any top 50 list, never mind top 30.

AB, it just popped into my mind:  have you ever heard of Al Kaline? That is kind of the way I look at Issel. Great but few have ever heard of him and is rarely given his due. Kaline is one of the all-around greatest baseball players ever. Hit for average, power, and was gold glover but played for Tigers in Yankees Mantle era for much of his career. Best analogy I could come up with. Maybe Don Hutson in football, although I have seen him on a few lists.

Offline AB™

  • America's Team
  • Fearless Friday Elite
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,547
  • Karma: +829/-806
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #106 on: June 16, 2011, 11:35:29 pm »
Barry in '75, Hakeem in '93, some say Duncan in '03, and now Dirk in 2011 are all very impressive title runs because their respective teams simply because their supporting cast didn't consist of a lot else. 

RATTLER, I'm curious as to why you have Issel ranked so high?  I know he scored nearly 30,000 points in the ABA and NBA combined, but I've never seen him ranked in any top 50 list, never mind top 30.

AB, it just popped into my mind:  have you ever heard of Al Kaline? That is kind of the way I look at Issel. Great but few have ever heard of him and is rarely given his due. Kaline is one of the all-around greatest baseball players ever. Hit for average, power, and was gold glover but played for Tigers in Yankees Mantle era for much of his career. Best analogy I could come up with. Maybe Don Hutson in football, although I have seen him on a few lists.

Yeah, I've heard of Kaline.  I'm almost as big of a MLB history nerd as I am with NBA history.  However, I do hold Kaline in a higher light in MLB history than I do Issel in NBA history.  But that's mostly because if the baseball history related books I've read more and heard more about Kaline than Issel in the NBA history related books I've read. 
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 01:31:42 am by AB™ »

Offline Rizzo

  • Assistant Coach
  • *
  • Posts: 4,907
  • Karma: +167/-506
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #107 on: June 16, 2011, 11:39:24 pm »
Most real baseball people, know who Kaline is.

He played 22 years in the Bigs, and is a Hall of Famer (I have a picture of his plaque in the hall somewhere or another).


And, he still works for the Tigers in front office ops.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 11:41:12 pm by Rizzo »

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #108 on: June 17, 2011, 05:18:42 am »
Like I said. It was best I could think of.

Offline Peety

  • Tongan javelin throwing Champion
  • Starter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,534
  • Karma: +60/-84
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #109 on: June 17, 2011, 11:38:43 am »
This is an off question but do you think Kobe will break Kareem's record of 38,387? Getting pretty close.

Offline Father Guido

  • Hall of Famer
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,100
  • Karma: +584/-527
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #110 on: June 17, 2011, 11:51:50 am »
Kaline was one of the Greats and should be counted as one.  You are correct that he kinda gets lost in the Mantle, Mays, Aaron era.

Issel?  Not sure I'd put him up in the Hall of Fame category, but was certainly a tremenously gifted player.  Mostly noted for his shooting, but played with a lot of grit and a few lost teeth and a broken nose or two if I remember correctly.  He's one of those whose legacy looses a bit, (for whatever reason), because he played several years in the ABA.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #111 on: June 17, 2011, 12:49:17 pm »
It will be up to Kobe if he wants to hang on past the time he is great and just go for the record. He is capable but he looks to fall off sharply in the coming years. Not the age; it's the mileage!

Kaline was an all-time great but playing during the Mays/Mantle/Aaron era put him out of the public eye along with being in Detroit. Even Clemente, Robinson, and others are generally highly regarded and Kaline not even mentioned. 

Guido, this is what I think has happened to Issel. You already mentioned the ABA; but add that to playing in Denver, playing during the Kareem years with McAdoo, Gilmore, Lanier, Unseld, Cowens, even Sikma ahead of him in the public eye. Sikma because of back to back championship appearances.

Of course, I have already mentioned that it just might be me. I think he is HOF material. The data backs it up. His teams' success back it up. He met my eye test. He just was outside the big circle in the day.

He may end up like Dale Murphy and some from his era that looked like locks but preceeded the steroid/gaudy numbers era and may get lost in the shuffle.

Offline AB™

  • America's Team
  • Fearless Friday Elite
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,547
  • Karma: +829/-806
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #112 on: June 17, 2011, 12:55:48 pm »
This is an off question but do you think Kobe will break Kareem's record of 38,387? Getting pretty close.

No, and he's not "pretty close" either.  He's still 10,519 points away.  Kobe just finished up his 15th season and will turn 33 in August.

He is already showing signs of breaking down, so I'm not sure we'll see many more full 82 game seasons out of him.  Say he plays an average of 80 games per season for 5 more years.  That's 400 more games, so say he averages 25 points per game over those 400 games, then that would still leave him 519 points shy of Kareem.  Seeing as how he will be creeping closer to 40, I'm going to say he probably averages less than 80 games per season over the next 5-7 years (if he plays that long) and probably averages closer to 20-23 points per game.

It's not out of the question, but he'd have to play another 5 or 6 seasons averaging around 25 points per game.  I just don't see that happening.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #113 on: June 17, 2011, 01:19:18 pm »
I agree with AB that I don't think it will happen; I also think he will allow his scoring to decrease as his chances of winning titles must allow other options. It already happened this season. But........I saw Mays hang on, Farve hang on, etc. and if Kobe held on to 43 or so like Robert Parrish, Kareem, and company he could inch closer and closer. If he went to a bad team after his skills diminished some he could jack up shot after shot. Only Kobe can determine what will occur along those lines. But I think he will give it up when titles are no longer within his grasp.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #114 on: June 17, 2011, 02:52:21 pm »
Where do you guys rank Artis Gilmore, Patrick Ewing, Reggie Miller, and Alex English?

These guys had great careers with great stats; they won a lot and even got to title games but......

Offline AB™

  • America's Team
  • Fearless Friday Elite
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,547
  • Karma: +829/-806
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #115 on: June 17, 2011, 03:52:52 pm »
I can't give you exact pinpoint rankings on those guys but....

Gilmore:  in the 70-100 range

Ewing:  top 40

Miller:  70-85 range

English:  About the same as Miller

Offline AB™

  • America's Team
  • Fearless Friday Elite
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,547
  • Karma: +829/-806
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #116 on: June 17, 2011, 03:59:01 pm »
And in case anyone forgot about just how good Michael Jordan was, check out 1st 3-peat MJ (1991-1993) in the NBA Finals


17 games
44.0 mpg
36.3 ppg
6.6 rpg
7.9 apg
2.0 spg
0.8 bpg
52.6% FG (245/466)
42.1% 3P (24/57)
80.5% FT (103/128)

In those 17 games...

-He scored 30+ points 14 times

- Had 5 40+ point games and two other 39 point games

-Scored 55 against the Suns in the '93 Finals

-Averaged 41.0 ppg on 50.7% shooting in the '93 Finals against Phoenix in 6 games


On the other hand, Kobe only shot above 50% in one of his Finals series (26.5 ppg on 51.4% shooting) and that was against the Nets in 2004.  In his other 6 NBA Finals the highest he shot from the floor was 42.9% (32.4 ppg) against the Magic in 2009 -- 5 games.  If you eliminate the 2004 Finals for Kobe, he shot just 40.2% from the floor in his other 6 NBA Finals series.

Oh, and you know the myth that Kobe being a much better three point shooter than Jordan is what makes Kobe nearly Jordan's equal in some people's eyes?

Jordan in 6 NBA Finals (35 games):  42/114 (36.8% 3P)
Kobe in 7 NBA Finals (38 games):  48/153 (31.4% 3P)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 08:06:44 pm by AB™ »

Offline Peety

  • Tongan javelin throwing Champion
  • Starter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,534
  • Karma: +60/-84
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #117 on: June 17, 2011, 04:38:22 pm »
How old was Kareem when he retired?

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #118 on: June 17, 2011, 07:56:53 pm »
42

Offline AB™

  • America's Team
  • Fearless Friday Elite
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,547
  • Karma: +829/-806
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #119 on: June 17, 2011, 08:01:52 pm »
How old was Kareem when he retired?

He should have retired two seasons earlier than he did.  He was pretty worthless his final two seasons with the Lakers. 

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #120 on: June 17, 2011, 08:15:02 pm »
He was okay offensively in the next to last season but his defense went south for the final 3 seasons. Foot speed was gone. His last season he was just a shell of himself on both ends of the floor.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #121 on: June 17, 2011, 08:32:31 pm »
And in case anyone forgot about just how good Michael Jordan was, check out 1st 3-peat MJ (1991-1993) in the NBA Finals


17 games
44.0 mpg
36.3 ppg
6.6 rpg
7.9 apg
2.0 spg
0.8 bpg
52.6% FG (245/466)
42.1% 3P (24/57)
80.5% FT (103/128)

In those 17 games...

-He scored 30+ points 14 times

- Had 5 40+ point games and two other 39 point games

-Scored 55 against the Suns in the '93 Finals

-Averaged 41.0 ppg on 50.7% shooting in the '93 Finals against Phoenix in 6 games


On the other hand, Kobe only shot above 50% in one of his Finals series (26.5 ppg on 51.4% shooting) and that was against the Nets in 2004.  In his other 6 NBA Finals the highest he shot from the floor was 42.9% (32.4 ppg) against the Magic in 2009 -- 5 games.  If you eliminate the 2004 Finals for Kobe, he shot just 40.2% from the floor in his other 6 NBA Finals series.

Oh, and you know the myth that Kobe being a much better three point shooter than Jordan is what makes Kobe nearly Jordan's equal in some people's eyes?

Jordan in 6 NBA Finals (35 games):  42/114 (36.8% 3P)
Kobe in 7 NBA Finals (38 games):  48/153 (31.4% 3P)

While I agree that MJ is the man, don't discount the eye test for athletes. Stats just do not tell the entire story. I have MJ at the top, then Kareem, then Magic and Bird. After a large step I have Kobe next.

Not only did MJ get it done statistically he did it with great elegance. His graceful airful acrobatics were a pleasure to watch; his in-your-eye shooting was old school cool; his drive the steak through your heart with a great block, steal, and/or shot was the thing that each of us dreamed of in our back yards. MJ was the man.

Offline Father Guido

  • Hall of Famer
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,100
  • Karma: +584/-527
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #122 on: June 17, 2011, 08:42:48 pm »
I can't give you exact pinpoint rankings on those guys but....

Gilmore:  in the 70-100 range

Ewing:  top 40

Miller:  70-85 range

English:  About the same as Miller


That's probably about right, but personally, I'd bump Gilmore a little higher, or at least lower that back-end number.  Why?  He was a great defensive player, which coupled with his productive offensive numbers moves him up some to me.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #123 on: June 17, 2011, 08:48:07 pm »
I got off my original point when I started thinking about MJ and his incredible plays.

Stats cannot tell you who defended you, who you had as teammates, what style of ball was played, or how the other team defended/played.

MJ would have been great no matter what so let's get that out of the way; but being guarded by Dan Majerle is not quite the same as being guarded by a Doc Rivers coached team or by the Pistons early in the last decade with Teyshaun Prince and company. MJ is far and away better than Kobe but I am always trying to preach that stats don't tell the entire story. Any team playing MJ knew that if the double team were to happen he would find a lethal 3-pt shooter in Kerr or Paxon, or hit Pippen for an easy drive. Kobe has not been surrounded by great 3-pt shooting. He also spent his early years with Shaq which did lead to titles but for stats sakes it clogged the driving lanes quite often. There is so much more to be considered than just stats.

Offline AB™

  • America's Team
  • Fearless Friday Elite
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,547
  • Karma: +829/-806
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #124 on: June 17, 2011, 09:26:39 pm »
I got off my original point when I started thinking about MJ and his incredible plays.

Stats cannot tell you who defended you, who you had as teammates, what style of ball was played, or how the other team defended/played.

MJ would have been great no matter what so let's get that out of the way; but being guarded by Dan Majerle is not quite the same as being guarded by a Doc Rivers coached team or by the Pistons early in the last decade with Teyshaun Prince and company. MJ is far and away better than Kobe but I am always trying to preach that stats don't tell the entire story. Any team playing MJ knew that if the double team were to happen he would find a lethal 3-pt shooter in Kerr or Paxon, or hit Pippen for an easy drive. Kobe has not been surrounded by great 3-pt shooting. He also spent his early years with Shaq which did lead to titles but for stats sakes it clogged the driving lanes quite often. There is so much more to be considered than just stats.

I agree, but I can say Jordan was on a completely different level than Kobe when each was in their respective primes because I saw both of them play.

I agree, Kobe played against two spectacular defensive TEAMS in Detroit in the '04 Finals and Boston in the '08 and '10 Finals.  On the other hand, Jordan spent the entire '96 Finals being defended by one of the 3-5 best perimeter defenders of all-time in Gary Payton and, despite that being his worst Finals performance, he still put up numbers in that series on par with what Kobe did in pretty much every Finals series he played in -- save 2002.  And this can be looked at as an excuse, but I have read on several occasions where Jordan's teammates, coaches, and other people who watched and followed the NBA closely during Jordan's return, (2nd 3-peat) say Jordan was better in 1996-1997 (first year they beat the Jazz) than in 1995-1996 when they beat the Sonics.  He was still, more or less, spending basically the entire 1995-1996 season getting back into basketball shape/form, and was really back in 1996-1997. 

I understand that stats don't tell the entire story but Kobe has never been on Jordan's level, and it's not like Kobe played in 7 NBA Finals against 7 great defenses.  The Celtics did have a great defensive team which slowed him down, but he spent most of those two series being defended by Ray Allen who, for all intents and purposes, has never been hailed as a good defender.  I also don't recall the 2000 Pacers, 2001 76ers, 2002 Nets, or the 2009 Magic having great perimeter defenders. 

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #125 on: June 17, 2011, 09:31:23 pm »
Agreed. I prefaced it by saying MJ is at the top. I think he would have been great against any defender. I just think Kobe is great. But not the greatest.

Offline AB™

  • America's Team
  • Fearless Friday Elite
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,547
  • Karma: +829/-806
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #126 on: June 17, 2011, 10:24:26 pm »
Agreed. I prefaced it by saying MJ is at the top. I think he would have been great against any defender. I just think Kobe is great. But not the greatest.

I have Kobe in my top 10, too.  Shouldn't have made it sound like he's not a great player haha.

I just think the gap between Michael Jordan and every other guard in NBA history is quite bit.  Even the gap from Jordan (the best guard ever) to Magic (second best guard ever) is pretty big, but it's hard to compare those two since Magic and MJ were such completely different players.

But, IMO, the gap between MJ and that next group of great scoring guards -- Kobe, West, Oscar -- is HUGE.  Regardless of who he played against and beat in the 1st 3peat (Lakers, Blazers, Suns) what Jordan did in those three championship runs is borderline truly unbelievable. 

And it should also be noted, if you go back and look at the other all-time great players who were apart of at least 3 championship series, they also played against teams with favorable match-ups in order for them to put up good numbers.  I mean look at Shaq during the Lakers 3-peat:  15 games, 35.9 ppg, 15.6 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.9 bpg, 59.5% FG.  That alone will help you understand why some people consider Shaq the most dominant center in NBA history.  He put up 36/15.5/3blk on nearly 60% shooting en-route to 3 championships.  Then you have to remember he went up against the likes of Rik Smits and Todd MaCulloch, and an old Dikembe Mutombo during that 3-peat.   

Offline Father Guido

  • Hall of Famer
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,100
  • Karma: +584/-527
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #127 on: June 18, 2011, 07:17:32 am »
I think your point about the opposing defenses probably hits the nail on the head as to why playing in the ABA brings a lot of these guys down.  Let's just say the ABA, as a league, was not noted for its defense.  That was their main marketing tool.  They wanted excitement and flash.  In a word, "OFFENSE".  There WERE some great defensive players, but for the most part it was all about offense.  That's the biggest knock on Gervin.  I'm not sure if he ever went to the other end of the floor til he went to the NBA.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #128 on: June 18, 2011, 01:56:52 pm »
I know. I watched Bobby Jones, who was an extraordinary defender, play D on Dr. J in the old ABA and it looked as if he were supposed to let him score.

I, too, agree that MJ is way ahead of the next SG in history whomever anyone puts there. I will stay out of the argument about the gap size between MJ and Magic. Two different players/positions. But the gap is still there.

More later.... On to a birthday party.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #129 on: June 18, 2011, 05:57:33 pm »
Yes, Guido, I think it hurts players who starred in the ABA even when they became awesome in the NBA afterward. They struggled to kick the taint. The old school NBA made sure of that. But history shows that they were in fact great: Rick Barry came home and led them to the title; Dr. J, World B. Free, George Mc. and company made their first NBA title series, Gervin, Kenon, Paultz, Dampier and company were playoff regularly and made WCF. Gilmore was with them in their second major run of early 80s. Bobby Jones joined Sixers and Moses Malone for title appearances and finally a title. Issel, Jones, and Thompson led Nuggets to the brink. I guess I just have a soft spot for the ABA greats.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #130 on: June 18, 2011, 06:23:18 pm »
Back to the discussion of greatness.
Rating players with 1000 being a perfect score.

1. MJ  990    He loses points for not winning the title every season!; no, seriously, he loses points for early outside shot, early passing, and late career shooting while with Wizards. In his prime he was nearly a perfect player.

2. Kareem 978  He loses points for lack of titles in 70s and for hanging on too long; if you rate him from rookie season to 1985 he is nearly a perfect score as well. He did not win many titles but he was surrounded by mediocrity. Proof:  He made the conference finals only to be swept by a vastly superior Blazers team. Look at the shooting pcts. of this Lakers squad and tell me how great Kareem had to be to get them there.

1 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 29 11 467 147 242   87 120 51 195 45 19 38  42 381 .607  .725 42.5 34.6 17.7 4.1
2 Cazzie Russell 32 11 382 65 157   44 50 22 48 25 16 1  33 174 .414  .880 34.7 15.8 4.4 2.3
3 Earl Tatum 23 11 356 67 134   16 24 16 54 27 15 9  34 150 .500  .667 32.4 13.6 4.9 2.5
4 Don Ford 24 11 333 42 98   27 36 22 58 37 17 4  28 111 .429  .750 30.3 10.1 5.3 3.4
5 Don Chaney 30 11 412 36 96   16 22 24 52 48 21 3  32 88 .375  .727 37.5 8.0 4.7 4.4
6 Lucius Allen 29 7 186 32 82   13 19 7 32 24 11 3  18 77 .390  .684 26.6 11.0 4.6 3.4
« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 09:21:09 pm by RATTLER43 »

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #131 on: June 18, 2011, 06:36:49 pm »
3. Magic  975  Early outside shot was horrible; had the year of the turnover against the Celtics and DJ in '84; other than that he rates as high as any player.

4. Larry Bird  975  Lack of longevity hurts him; wish he had been healthy for at least 4 more seasons; his defensive mind was incredible but sometimes his footspeed was very beatable(Worthy showed it time and time again with quick first step).

5. Kobe Bryant  945  Lack of great passing ability puts him lower on list than Magic and Bird. All else is great about Kobe.

6. Russell  920  Lack of all around offensive game. His defense, rebounding, and passing as a big man, plus leadership, intangibles, and determination are all 1000; his title count puts him above Shaq and Wilt although I would take Shaq in his prime over Russell in his or I would take both and put Shaq at center and Russell at power forward. Free shot shooting was atrocious like almost all great big men.

7.  Shaq  915  Horrible free shot shooting plus only developed other facets of offensive game later on. He relied on his low post dominance early in career because nobody could stop it.

8. Wilt 915  Just did not lead teams to titles like he should have; horrible free shot shooting;

9.  Tim Duncan  910  No weaknesses but not the greatest at anything. He was not a top-notch free shot shooter.

10. Dr. J  910  Played early part of career in ABA so it is difficult to judge properly. I have seen numerous interviews with Magic Johnson where he holds Dr. J in high esteem. If you count the ABA days equally (which I know you cannot do) then the good Dr. moves up to about 975.

I used weaknesses to explain why each of these is not at 1000. We can discuss what they were good at all night long.

Of the big men on this list, Kareem is the only one that shot free shots relatively well.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 04:41:16 pm by RATTLER43 »

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #132 on: June 18, 2011, 08:48:13 pm »
Areas rated for overall score:
1  “it” quality  (MJ is the epitome of “it” quality)
2. Championship/winning rating (Bill Russell dominates this category)
3. Scoring ability (Wilt Chamberlain is at the head of this class)
4. Defensive ability (Kareem/Russell/Michael Cooper, etc.describe this category)
5. Outside shooting (Larry Bird is tops because he did it in regular season, playoffs, All star shooting contest, and in crucial situations even when the other team knew it(because he told them he was going to do it) was coming and in the crunch time).
6. Post play (Kareem is unparalleled; his footwork was impeccable and the sky hook was good up to 20 feet. If you do not believe it, go look at the championship series back in early 70s when he hit game winning shot with hook at 20 feet). Hakeem, Timmy boy, and Shaq were awesome as well.
7. Rebounding (Russell and Wilt in the era; Dennis Rodman in our era)
8. Ball-handling (Magic and Stockton come to mind)
9. Passing (Magic and Bird were best at their positions)
10. Free shooting (Barry, Bird, and toward end of career-Magic; Dirk in today’s NBA)
Bonus for leadership/intangibles/clutch (Derek Fisher is a prime example of high score in this area but not in many of the others; Robert Horry is another; Reggie Miller as well) MJ, Magic, and Bird are at the top of this list as well. Bird was just so crafty; he thought the game so well; He demanded so much of his team on the floor during a game. His expectations were to win every time out. Magic could just make sick plays involving teammates and making the rest of the NBA look slow; Magic is the best ever at getting the most out of every player on his team while on the floor. If you were not ready for a pass he might just break your nose with a quick pass. MJ was so driven like the first two and possessed the athleticism to do things that no player had done since Dr. J and then doing so much more. Then he developed every area of his game seeming to rise above all that had preceded him. All three put in so much practice time working on areas of the game(especially outside shooting and free shots). They are just winners.

Offline AB™

  • America's Team
  • Fearless Friday Elite
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,547
  • Karma: +829/-806
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #133 on: June 18, 2011, 09:07:44 pm »
Just some others that have to be mentioned in some of those categories in my opinion...

Free Throw Shooting:  Has to include Mark Price, Steve Nash and Ray Allen. 

Post Play:  The ones you mentioned are all at the top of anyone's list, but you can't leave out Kevin McHale. 

Defensive Category:  I know you mentioned Michael Cooper, who is one of the best perimeter defenders of all-time, but how about some others?...

Michael Jordan, Sidney Moncrief, Alvin Robertson, Dennis Johnson, and Gary Payton would probably be in most people's top 10-15 perimeter defenders of all-time.  And then there's some current players that belong in the discussion, too, like Dwyane Wade and Kobe Bryant. 

And how about some the ultra-versatile defensive greats...

Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Bobby Jones, Ron Artest, Bruce Bowen and Shane Battier.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #134 on: June 18, 2011, 09:15:28 pm »
I love it. This is my kind of stuff. Moncrief and McHale's strengths are often overlooked due to short career or overshadowed by greatness. Reggie Miller for FT shooting along with Calvin Murphy. The lists just go on and on. Put your top 5 or 10 in each list if you like. I probably will go back and do so.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #135 on: June 18, 2011, 09:22:43 pm »
* I did give Dennis Johnson credit in my rating of Magic Johnson, though I did not mention him in my explanation and examples of defense.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #136 on: June 18, 2011, 09:24:45 pm »
I was giving credit to DJ while also pointing out that Magic turned it over much that finals. Magic had to learn how to handle the Celtic D with DJ covering him. Even greats have a learning curve. Magic's was in an area he had ultimate greatness.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #137 on: June 18, 2011, 09:32:36 pm »
While we are on the subject, I have DJ as one of my top 10 all-time Shooting Guards. I know he played point for the Celtics quite a lot but he played the 2-guard for most of his career and he did not need incredible point guard skills when they met the Lakers in the finals. He was brought in by Auerbach to help defeat the Sixers and Lakers by defending Andrew Toney and Magic.

Sometimes while making lists I forget to add him. He was great on both ends.

Offline AB™

  • America's Team
  • Fearless Friday Elite
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,547
  • Karma: +829/-806
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #138 on: June 18, 2011, 09:44:58 pm »
I'll give this a shot.  Some of these lists aren't exactly what you had and I'm going to break them down by perimeter players and interior players.


Top Scorers - based solely on scoring ability and scoring ease

Perimeter Players
1.  Michael Jordan
2.  Kobe Bryant
3.  Elgin Baylor
4.  George Gervin
5.  Dominique Wilkins
6.  Rick Barry
7.  George Gervin
8.  David Thompson
9.  Bernard King
10. LeBron James

Interior Players
1.  Wilt Chamberlain
2.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3.  Kevin McHale
4.  Hakeem Olajuwon
5.  Karl Malone
6.  Elvin Hayes
7.  Shaquille O'Neal
8.  Dirk Nowitzki (technically he's a frontcourt/interior player)
9.  Tim Duncan
10.  Moses Malone

With the interior players I took into consideration things like variety of post-moves and mid-range effectiveness.  For all intents and purposes there's never been anyone as unstoppable as Shaq, but outside of just being to strong and athletic for anyone that ever tried to guard him, he couldn't score much further out than 4 or 5 feet. 



Top Defenders

Perimeter Players
1.  Scottie Pippen
2.  Sidney Moncrief
3.  Gary Payton
4.  Michael Jordan
5.  Michael Cooper
6.  Alvin Robertson
7.  Dennis Johnson
8.  Joe Dumars
9.  Ron Artest
10. Kobe Bryant (1st 3peat Kobe was suffocating as an on-ball defender)

Interior Players
1.  Bill Russell
2.  Hakeem Olajuwon
3.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4.  Wilt Chamberlain
5.  Dennis Rodman
6.  Tim Duncan
7.  Ben Wallace
8.  Kevin Garnett
9.  Elvin Hayes
10. Patrick Ewing

Honorable Mention  Dwight Howard, Dave Cowens, Dikembe Mutombo, David Robinson, Shaquille O'Neal...there have been so many great defensive big men throughout NBA history.



That pretty much encompasses every player on both ends of the floor.  Most of those players are interchangeable.  Just because I have someone at #2 and someone else at #4 doesn't necessarily mean I firmly believe #2 was better than #4.  I basically just started listing players off the top of my head.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #139 on: June 18, 2011, 10:08:48 pm »
I like it.

Perimeter Players
1.  Michael Jordan
2.  Kobe Bryant
3.  Dr. J
4.  George Gervin
5.  Elgin Baylor
6.  Rick Barry
7.  Carmelo Anthony
8.  David Thompson
9.  Bernard King
10. D-Wade

Interior Players
1.  Wilt Chamberlain
2.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3.  Shaq
4.  Moses Malone
5.  Karl Malone
6.  Elvin Hayes
7.  Hakeem
8.  Dirk Nowitzki
9.  Tim Duncan
10.  Kevin McHale

Top Defenders

Perimeter Players
1.  Scottie Pippen
2.  Sidney Moncrief
3.  Gary Payton
4.  Michael Jordan
5.  Michael Cooper
6.  Alvin Robertson
7.  Dennis Johnson
8.  Joe Dumars
9.  Ron Artest
10. Kobe Bryant

Interior Players
1.  Kareem in his prime
2.  Bill Russell (he dominated rebounding and games with only Wilt in league at same time; Wilt's offensive stats against Russell are actually quite impressive; He just could not beat the Celtics team)
3.  Hakeem
4.  Wilt Chamberlain
5.  Dennis Rodman
6.  Tim Duncan
7.  Ben Wallace
8.  Kevin Garnett
9.  David Robinson
10. Patrick Ewing


I just tweaked yours to use as my own.

Offline AB™

  • America's Team
  • Fearless Friday Elite
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,547
  • Karma: +829/-806
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #140 on: June 18, 2011, 10:34:02 pm »
One player I've become more familiar with and more pleasantly impressed with is Elvin Hayes.  He was a very good two-way player.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #141 on: June 18, 2011, 11:01:04 pm »
Areas rated for overall score:
1  “it” quality  (MJ, Magic, Bird, DWade, Russell, Dr. J, Kareem, Kobe, Jerry West, Shaq)
2. Championship/winning rating (Bill Russell, Kareem, MJ, Magic, Kobe, Shaq, Bird, Duncan, Dr. J, DJ)
3. Scoring ability (Wilt Chamberlain, MJ, Gervin, Dr. J, Shaq, Moses Malone, Kareem, Kobe, DWade, Karl Malone)
4. Defensive ability (Kareem/Russell/Michael Cooper, Dwade, DJ, Rodman, Moncrief, Dumars, MJ, Pippen)
5. Outside shooting (Larry Bird, Dirk*, Andrew Toney, Ray Allen, MJ, Reggie Miller, Kobe, Glen Rice, Chris Mullin, Jerry West)
6. Post play Kareem, Hakeem, Timmy boy, Shaq, McHale, Wilt, KG, Moses Malone, Dave Cowens, MJ-yes, he was great in the post)
7. Rebounding (Russell, Dennis Rodman, Wilt, KG, Pettit, Kareem first 10 years, Duncan, Wes Unseld, Oscar Robertson, Moses Malone)
8. Ball-handling (Magic, Stockton, Cousy, Nash, Price, Tiny, Pistol Pete, Rondo, Mark Jackson, Kidd)
9. Passing (Magic, Bird, Stockton, Pistol Pete, Lebron, Bill Walton, Big O, Nash, Cousy, Kidd)
10. Free shooting (Barry, Bird, Miller, Murphy, Magic; Dirk, MJ, Mullin, Allen, Gervin)
Bonus for leadership/intangibles/clutch (Magic, MJ, Bird, Russell, Dr. J, Jerry West, Kareem)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2011, 11:32:05 pm by RATTLER43 »

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #142 on: June 18, 2011, 11:24:05 pm »
Outside shooters who you might not have heard of or have forgotten:
Ricky Pierce(Bucks of late Moncrief era)
Byron Scott(the most unheralded great player from Magic's Lakers)
Phil Chenier(from Elvin Hayes group)
Brian Winters(early Moncrief era)
Paul Westphal (for one year he was my favorite player then he began to fall from grace for me.
Downtown Freddie Brown for those Supersonics with DJ and Sikma(I spent the summer with my grandparents and stayed up watching them although they knew nothing about basketball) Great memories.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #143 on: June 19, 2011, 12:23:01 am »
You mentioned Elvin Hayes. I read somewhere that the Hayes Bullets were the winningest team of the 70s. I know that is who Kareem and the Bucks defeated for the title in '71(Hayes was not yet with them). They lost to Rick Barry and then again to DJ's Supersonics. They won one title. 4 finals is nice. Hayes got to 3.
They made the finals 4 times and Eastern conference semis all 10 seasons. I am still baffled by their loss to Rick Barry's Warriors. They lost by 1 pt twice and by 6 and by 8. Close games all but still.....

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #144 on: June 19, 2011, 01:15:44 am »

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #145 on: June 19, 2011, 01:24:37 am »
I have been reading for hours now. I read MJ's and Tex Winter's takes on MJ-Kobe comparison. They said that Kobe was close and that was after the loss to Boston a few years back. One would think they think he closed the gap over the next three seasons. I still think MJ is the cat's meow but think Kobe is top 5. In the article he mentions how much larger MJ's hands were than Kobe's. Dr. J's were huge as well. I think it is a very meaningful thing. If you go find the original article Winter discusses Kobe being asked to do so much more offensively that he took breaks on defense. Not a good thing. MJ was stellar on both ends and even changed games with his D.

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2008/09/michael-jordan-and-tex-winter-discuss.html


Offline Father Guido

  • Hall of Famer
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,100
  • Karma: +584/-527
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #146 on: June 19, 2011, 07:23:57 am »
One player I've become more familiar with and more pleasantly impressed with is Elvin Hayes.  He was a very good two-way player.

Hayes was an incredibly gifted player.  In 1968, in the FIRST Nationally televised regular season college game, his Houston Cougars ended UCLA and Lew Alcindor's, (Kareem Abdul Jabaar, for those too young to remember), 47 game win streak.  In that game Hayes scored around 40 pts and a ton of rebounds while shutting down Alcindor to about 15 points even though he was 3-4 inches shorter.

Offline Father Guido

  • Hall of Famer
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,100
  • Karma: +584/-527
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #147 on: June 19, 2011, 07:27:48 am »
Good read about Bob Dandridge. I had forgotten how really good he was. http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2010/08/bob-dandridge-reconsidered.html



Yes, Dandridge was a very good all-around player.  Not a prolifice scorer, but he could produce when needed, (especially in big games), but a VERY good defender and very athletic.

Offline RATTLER43

  • Head Coach
  • **
  • Posts: 9,475
  • Karma: +371/-253
  • Gender: Male
  • Old School
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #148 on: June 19, 2011, 09:30:22 am »
That was the game in college until Magic-Bird championship game. Houston was incredible, too. They had two All Americans themselves in Hayes and Don Chaney. Lew was injured but the loss may have been the best thing that could have happened for him, UCLA, and college basketball.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 04:46:20 pm by RATTLER43 »

Offline Father Guido

  • Hall of Famer
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,100
  • Karma: +584/-527
  • Gender: Male
Re: Your Top 10 NBA Players of All-Time
« Reply #149 on: June 19, 2011, 03:15:08 pm »
That was the game in college until Magic-Bird championship game. Houston was incredible, too. They had two All Americans themselves in Hayes and Don Chaney. Lew was injured but the loss may have been the best thing that could have happened for him, UCLA, and college basketball.

It was the FIRST college game to be Nationally televised.  Sold out the Astrodome, something like 58,000.

 

Baptist Health Orthopedic Center