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Other Arkansas High School Sports => Arkansas High School Soccer => Topic started by: sevenof400 on March 16, 2019, 05:46:05 pm

Title: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sevenof400 on March 16, 2019, 05:46:05 pm
...questions here.

As a note: there are a few of those who practice the dark arts (ha!) around here......ask away if so inclined!
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: VHSCoach2 on March 16, 2019, 09:19:39 pm
Do you care if the captains wear their bands over the socks rather than on their arms?

Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: WillC on March 17, 2019, 02:42:06 am
Do you care if the captains wear their bands over the socks rather than on their arms?
As far as the rules go I don't care, but I think it looks funny.
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sssuperpantherfan2 on March 17, 2019, 08:34:20 am
Can you pick the ball up and move it after you set it on the line for a goal kick?
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sevenof400 on March 17, 2019, 08:47:23 am
Do you care if the captains wear their bands over the socks rather than on their arms?

The rules state:
Quote
.....ART. 2 . . . It is recommended that team captains wear an upper arm band of a contrasting color. The captain’s band, if worn, shall be worn on the upper arm....

I'm looking for a way to tactfully say this ..... where a captain wears an armband is not high on my list of considerations..

Is it a rule?  Yes. 
Is it meaningful to the game? No.
It would make more sense to require captains to wear armbands if you are going to be concerned about where the armband is worn.
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Lionheart88 on March 17, 2019, 08:55:33 am
Do you care if the captains wear their bands over the socks rather than on their arms?


I don’t, though I think technically they’re supposed to.  I did see a guy the other day make some kids move them.  I think that’s silly.

Can you pick the ball up and move it after you set it on the line for a goal kick?
Technically, I don’t think so.  In practice, you probably can unless the ref thinks you’re time wasting.
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sevenof400 on March 17, 2019, 08:58:47 am
Can you pick the ball up and move it after you set it on the line for a goal kick?

If the placement / replacement of the ball is suggesting time wasting, it becomes an issue then.     

If a player places the ball, then picks it up and moves to the other side of the area, it becomes an issue then.

We play on too many fields where the goal area is in such poor shape that I'll give some benefit of the doubt to a player putting the ball down for a goal kick looking for a decently level place.

In the end, this becomes one of those 'in the opinion of the referee' considerations....
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: VHSCoach2 on March 17, 2019, 10:00:41 am
Does the player taking the free kick have to ask for ten yards, or is it the responsibility of the opposing players to give ten yards?

I've seen some referees not give ten because it wasn't asked, others mark off ten yards immediately (as in, before there is time for the kicking player to ask), and even others ask players if they want ten before marking it off.
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: futbolsoccer on March 17, 2019, 10:29:51 am
1. Off sides, need to understand that is call when the pass is made not when player get the ball, and in a cross,  as long as the player is behind the ball line ihe/she is on
side, if players on the left side of the field is off but pass is made to right side with layed on side, play still on, players on left side is not interrupting the play or involved in it, have seen many ar's raising flag on this plays.

2. Direct or indirect kick, in one game the ref called an INDIRECT free kick, because he have his arm up, but player took a direct kick and score, guess what?
It counted!
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chaoslord on March 17, 2019, 10:36:30 am
Does the player taking the free kick have to ask for ten yards, or is it the responsibility of the opposing players to give ten yards?

I've seen some referees not give ten because it wasn't asked, others mark off ten yards immediately (as in, before there is time for the kicking player to ask), and even others ask players if they want ten before marking it off.

It is the responsibility of the defending players to give 10 yards.

This is one of the trickeier areas of managing the game. The defense has a right to not be fooled by the referee on restarts so a lot of refs are shy about doing anything at all unless the offense asks for it. And like, if the defender is 8 yards instead of 10 on a free kick in the defensive third, is that a big deal? To some teams yes, to other teams they don’t care at all.

My general approach:
*If it’s in the attacking third, if the attacking team isn’t clearly looking to go quick, I’m gonna make it ceremonial. I’ve seen exactly one quick free kick taken from within ~25 yards of goal in the last 10 years, it’s just gonna waste more time to wait for the attacking team to eventually ask. If there’s a foul in that area I’m gonna be arriving on the scene quickly so if there hasn’t been a lot of movement by the time I get there, odds are someone’s gonna be asking for 10. Most of the time I’m getting asked “can we have 10 ref?” the moment I get there.
*In the middle third, a flyby “hey 7, that’s not 10 yards, cmon” seems to work well enough. I try to be proactive about it there and I feel like a quiet comment to one player isn’t enough to disadvantage the defense so I don’t need to whistle it.
*In the defending third, I’ve moved upfield already so if there’s any complaints about 10 I’m eithwr having my AR take it or just yelling back for the player to back up 3 steps. Good enough.

The hardest bit is if an attacker chooses to go quick, there are some situations where a defender less than 10 yards away can legally intercept the ball. So that’s always fun to deal with.
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Sir Alex on March 17, 2019, 11:01:20 pm
Technically, a player not 10 yards who blocks the ball played should be issued a yellow card and the freekick is retaken.  The officials job was made easier when this rule was updated by NFHS.

I wish as much leniency was given on corners as given on goal kicks. 

Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chandler on March 18, 2019, 10:03:31 am
How much time does a player get to make a throw in in the last couple minutes of a match? And can they decide to let a teammate take the throw in after already taking time off the clock. This is in regard to a player taking ten seconds (his team was up by one goal) only to decide to let another teammate make the throw in and that player also taking 10 seconds. Overall the clock went from :50 to less than :30 by the time the throw was made. What can a Ref do if he/she sees this unfolding?
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sevenof400 on March 18, 2019, 02:29:38 pm
Chaoslord's points above are good points all around. One of the largest issues faced in the referee community is one of continuity.  In other words, how can we get as many referees to be as consistent as possible in their application of the laws of the game.

Now add this consideration - the quality of play can vary widely in HS soccer.  How one calls a game will be impacted by the quality of the contestants.  This gets back to Chaoslords point earlier on how to deal with restarts.

While the LOTG are few (17 in all) it is their application of their laws that introduces such a wide level of interpretation.
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sevenof400 on March 18, 2019, 02:36:05 pm
To Chandler's point:
This should fall under the category of time wasting and the referee can take action (for example, issuing yellow cards for time wasting). 

But I will add this thought - there should be similar emphasis on this throughout the entirety of the match. 

If a match is out of hand early on (with say one team controlling the play), I'm going to place more emphasis on watching the leading team for time wasting than the trailing team. 
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Sir Alex on March 18, 2019, 04:59:48 pm
To Chandler's point:
This should fall under the category of time wasting and the referee can take action (for example, issuing yellow cards for time wasting). 

But I will add this thought - there should be similar emphasis on this throughout the entirety of the match. 

If a match is out of hand early on (with say one team controlling the play), I'm going to place more emphasis on watching the leading team for time wasting than the trailing team.

Gamesmanship
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sssuperpantherfan2 on March 18, 2019, 07:21:00 pm
I’ve seen some teams do nonstop subbing thru the entire match to stall a better team. It could be time wasting also.
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: futbolsoccer on March 18, 2019, 07:22:35 pm
I wish refs can add time for stuff like that, and fairplay.
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chaoslord on March 18, 2019, 07:50:41 pm
You could poll 20 referees and get a wide variety of answers on how long they are willing to let time go to take a throw in, but I Hope most if not all refs would recognize when that hand off to a second player after a long wait happens it’s delaying the restart and should be dealt with with a stopped clock and a yellow card.

Rule change for next year will stop the clock when the team in the lead subs in the last 5 minutes of the game, hopefully that will cut some shenanigans out.
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sevenof400 on March 18, 2019, 09:25:17 pm
With respect to the rule change for next year on stopping the clock, there should also be some emphasis on the running of the clock responsibilities.  I have seen a good number of clock operators this year who simply do not pay attention.  This rule change will likely mean more situations where the referee keeps the official time on the field and the stadium clock becomes a distraction.

I like the intent of the rule change but like some rule changes before this one, it probably will cause more issues than it solves.
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: VHSCoach2 on March 19, 2019, 08:08:19 am
You could poll 20 referees and get a wide variety of answers on how long they are willing to let time go to take a throw in, but I Hope most if not all refs would recognize when that hand off to a second player after a long wait happens it’s delaying the restart and should be dealt with with a stopped clock and a yellow card.

Rule change for next year will stop the clock when the team in the lead subs in the last 5 minutes of the game, hopefully that will cut some shenanigans out.

This will be used sparingly, right? Why stop the clock when a team is up multiple goals (as in, no way for the losing team to make a comeback) and wants to get their subs in? I understand in a close match, but in a blow out keep the clock moving.
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sevenof400 on March 19, 2019, 08:23:00 am
It is the responsibility of the defending players to give 10 yards.

This is one of the trickeier areas of managing the game........

The hardest bit is if an attacker chooses to go quick, there are some situations where a defender less than 10 yards away can legally intercept the ball. So that’s always fun to deal with.

Technically, a player not 10 yards who blocks the ball played should be issued a yellow card and the freekick is retaken.  The officials job was made easier when this rule was updated by NFHS.

I wish as much leniency was given on corners as given on goal kicks. 

As Chaoslord noted, this can be tricky!

It is was noting that a defensive player who commits a foul has to be given a reasonable amount of time to withdraw (move away).  While in the process of moving away, if that defender chooses to act / react to a quick restart, then a whole new set of considerations emerge.

But without beating that into the ground, what I dislike immensely is OTHER defenders - those who were NOT involved in the play / foul immediately prior to the call moving into the 10 yard zone for no other reason than to slow down / disrupt the restart.  As Sir Alex notes, that does need to be stopped and potentially carded.
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Ranger20 on March 19, 2019, 08:42:34 am
My son was playing in a U18 Rec tournament final a few years ago and, for some reason, we had a ref with experience from a few levels higher. The first time one our boys stood right in front of the ball so our defense could get set, this ref gave him a yellow card. The boy complained to the ref he should’ve gotten a warning first, to which the ref replied simply, “you know the rule.” Habits being what they are, another boy did the same and got the same yellow card response. Personally, I have no problem with holding players accountable for rules they were or should’ve been taught already. But, of course, it has to be consistently applied.
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: soccerfan3 on March 20, 2019, 01:34:06 pm
Why isn't there some type of physical fitness requirement for high school referees?  I have seen many bad or missed off-sides calls because the AR was not able to run fast enough down the sideline to be able to make the call. 
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Sir Alex on March 20, 2019, 02:00:13 pm
Why isn't there some type of physical fitness requirement for high school referees?  I have seen many bad or missed off-sides calls because the AR was not able to run fast enough down the sideline to be able to make the call.

The pool of officials would be cut in half if that happened. 
Title: Re: For some spring break activity: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sevenof400 on March 20, 2019, 02:23:56 pm
Why isn't there some type of physical fitness requirement for high school referees?  I have seen many bad or missed off-sides calls because the AR was not able to run fast enough down the sideline to be able to make the call.

And yes, I resemble this remark!   

Soccerfan3,

Trust me when I get where you're coming from on this.  As an older (more experienced...) referee, the fact of the matter is I am trying to keep up with players who may be 1/3 my age and weight.....  One of the reasons I got back into refereeing this year was because the pool of referees is so small the fact is I am NOT taking someone's spot (i.e. I am NOT pushing another referee out from having the opportunity to call matches). 

Can I keep up with a boys game at top speed?  Certainly not over an 80 minute game if the game is moving at a good clip throughout the entirety of the game.  Is that fair to the players?  Certainly not. 

But the question becomes what happens if a game does NOT have a full set of referees. 

Trust me I am NOT writing this while mad but trying to show you why some of us who (in a perfect world) should NOT be refereeing some of these high school games are. 
 
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Go Postal on March 30, 2019, 10:03:13 am
Here is a couple of things that I've seen over the years that have happened and might need clarification from someone.

1.  I've seen boys and girls games where they have thrown in the ball so hard from the sideline that it actually went in the goal and counted.  (This could also happen if the wind is in your favor or someone is doing the forward flip throw in.) Is this okay according to the rules?

2.  You might want to explain also when a goalie can NOT use his hands for the new posters on here.

3.  Explain how the two man referees system works, when there is not a third official available.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sevenof400 on March 30, 2019, 10:48:23 am
I wondered when you'd be back around these parts, Posty!  Hope all is well in H-town!

Here is a couple of things that I've seen over the years that have happened and might need clarification from someone.

1.  I've seen boys and girls games where they have thrown in the ball so hard from the sideline that it actually went in the goal and counted.  (This could also happen if the wind is in your favor or someone is doing the forward flip throw in.) Is this okay according to the rules?

If this happened as described and the goal was counted, the referee (and crew) just made a grievous error.

By law, a player in the field of play must touch the ball after a throw in occurs before the ball enters the goal.  And it also follows that by law, the player taking the thrown in is temporarily off the field of play (with implied permission though).
 
If a throw in is taken, and ends up in the the goal, the restart is either a goal kick (if the ball enters the opponents goal) or a corner kick (if the ball enters your own goal). 

As an aside, this post got me thinking about a procedural change.
When an indirect kick is taken, the CR will hold one arm up to indicate the free kick is indirect.  This is a way to show the ball must be touched by another player on the field of play before a goal can be scored.
This almost makes me think I would not be the worst idea to do this on a thrown in EXCEPT for the fact that in games with lots of throw ins, we'd be running around with arms in the air a lot......

Quote
2.  You might want to explain also when a goalie can NOT use his hands for the new posters on here.

Let's take the easiest part first - when a keeper leaves the penalty area, they are like any other player on the field and they cannot use their hands.  It is not often you see this in HS soccer but later in games (when a team is trailing) and a team gets a corner kick, some teams will add the keeper to the attack since keepers are frequently one of the more athletic players on a team and can jump.

It looks odd when a keeper vs keeper situation occurs on a free kick, but remember the keeper who is out of their own area is the same as any other field player (same rights and privileges).

In their own area, a keeper can use their hands ANYTIME - EXCEPT when a teammate deliberately passes the keeper the ball (with one exception).
In that case, a keeper MAY NOT legally pick up the ball.
Violations of this law result in an INDIRECT kick.  And boy can that get fun!

The exception is this - if a teammate plays their keeper the ball using their head, the keeper CAN pick this ball up.
Where you usually see this is on a punt.  One keeper blasts the ball down the field, and an opposing defender heads the ball back to their keeper.  This ball CAN BE picked up by the keeper.

It should also be noted a player cannot resort to trickery to circumvent this rule.  This means a player (usually a defender) CANNOT deliberately receive a ball with their feet, juggle the ball (as part of an attempt to elevate it), and then head the ball to their own keeper as part of an attempt to allow the keeper to pick up the ball within their own area. 

Quote
3.  Explain how the two man referees system works, when there is not a third official available.

Let me offer this for those who would really like to read more
http://ocsoccerofficials.com/files/94064763.pdf
That PDF may be a bit dated, but on a quick read of it this PDF still seems to be reasonably current.
The best resource in this PDF are the field diagrams that also have the 'indicated' areas of responsibility for each referee. 
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: WillC on March 30, 2019, 05:22:50 pm


The exception is this - if a teammate plays their keeper the ball using their head, the keeper CAN pick this ball up.

Slight edit: This exception applies to every body part except the foot. So if a player deliberately chest traps a ball to his goalkeeper, he can use his hands.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Sir Alex on March 30, 2019, 09:13:35 pm
Slight edit: This exception applies to every body part except the foot. So if a player deliberately chest traps a ball to his goalkeeper, he can use his hands.

Actually any body part above the waiste that can legally play the ball can be picked up by the keeper As long as it was not intentionally played with your lower body to the upper body back to the keeper.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: WillC on March 31, 2019, 02:48:42 am
Actually any body part above the waiste that can legally play the ball can be picked up by the keeper As long as it was not intentionally played with your lower body to the upper body back to the keeper.
I feel like that's a definitional issue. The book only mentions "kicking" and makes no reference to upper or lower body.

I know that FIFA has officially defined "kicked" as only occurring with the foot (meaning the GK can pick up knee and thigh passes). I'm comfortable with applying that to NFHS, since they provided no further explanation.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Lionheart88 on April 01, 2019, 07:18:13 pm
Any part of the arm is considered a handball.  I feel like I’ve seen refs apply the same basic standard to a kick, ie any part of the leg is a “kick”.  I’d want to consult some of my reffing mentors before I came down on either side, though.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: WillC on April 02, 2019, 02:58:23 pm
Any part of the arm is considered a handball.  I feel like I’ve seen refs apply the same basic standard to a kick, ie any part of the leg is a “kick”.  I’d want to consult some of my reffing mentors before I came down on either side, though.
IFAB defines "kick" as "when a player makes contact with the foot and/or the ankle," so for FIFA sanctioned matches, goalkeepers can pick up anything but foot/ankle passes. I can't seem to find anything for NFHS.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Go Postal on April 03, 2019, 10:12:28 pm
What would be the ruling on this scenario?
Opposing team makes a kick to the goal, the defender attempts to kick the ball away from the goal but the ball is just deflected and will still go in to the goal.  It's a high ball and the keeper only can use his hands to stop the goal.
Penalty or goal?
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arkiesoccer on April 03, 2019, 10:40:02 pm
What would be the ruling on this scenario?
Opposing team makes a kick to the goal, the defender attempts to kick the ball away from the goal but the ball is just deflected and will still go in to the goal.  It's a high ball and the keeper only can use his hands to stop the goal.
Penalty or goal?

Although I’m not a ref, the key word in your example is “deflected”, since it was not an intentional pass back, keeper can use their hands and play continues.

Below is a link to a document called “ Laws of the game made easy” - although it hasn’t been updated (the biggest change is the direction a ball can go on a kickoff) we provide this to all new to soccer parents and have had good feedback on it

http://www.calsouth.com/data/Downloads/Referees/LawsoftheGameMadeEasy.pdf
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chaoslord on April 04, 2019, 08:38:24 am
Arkiesoccer got it. 12-7-3 requires a deliberate kick to the goalkeeper. This is where the argument about what constitutes a "deliberate kick" begins. If a player has time to wind up in space without being challenged but shanks the kick, is that a deliberate kick? Does the word "deliberate" refer to the action or the result? All that fun stuff. As described, I'm not calling a passback. It's clearly not "to" the goalkeeper, it's an attempted clearance.

Here's a fun game: IF you, as the referee, decide to call this though.... what's the restart? I can't find spoiler tags so I'll just put a few spaces here.




(Indirect Free Kick. Goalkeeper illegally handling in their own penalty area is always an IFK, so no penalty. Keepers are also exempt from DOGSO-Handling so shouldn't see a red card for it. Some people will argue you could still send the keeper for DOGSO-F, but I'm skeptical of that argument. In NFHS I don't think you can make the argument at all, and in IFAB world I think it's quite a stretch.)
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sevenof400 on April 04, 2019, 10:03:59 am
Please elaborate:

... Some people will argue you could still send the keeper for DOGSO-F, but I'm skeptical of that argument. In NFHS I don't think you can make the argument at all, and in IFAB world I think it's quite a stretch.

Are you saying the keeper cannot be sent off for a DOGSO foul?   
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chaoslord on April 04, 2019, 10:28:54 am
Please elaborate:

Are you saying the keeper cannot be sent off for a DOGSO foul?

Sorry, was not as clear as I should have been.

A keeper can't be sent off for DOGSO related to handling the ball in their penalty area. This is explicitly called out in 12-8-2-d-2 "...a player (other than a goalkeeper within his/her own penalty area) deliberately handles the ball, attempting to prevent a goal and the goal is not scored." But there are two flavors of DOGSO- H (handling) and F (free kick).

There is at least on referee I have known to make the argument that, since picking up a backpass is punishable by a free kick, you could still ring up a keeper for DOGSO - F.  I was saying that argument is not really defensible, in my mind.

Keepers can and should get sent off for DOGSO - F when appropriate, just as long as it's not handling being shoe horned in.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sevenof400 on April 04, 2019, 11:21:23 am
Got'cha Chaoslord - thanks! 

Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: VHSCoach2 on April 04, 2019, 01:05:44 pm
What's the protocol for stopping the match for a non-head injury situation? Are you supposed to assess where the injured player(s) is/are down on the pitch and make a judgment call, or stop play immediately so that the injured player(s) can be tended to as soon as possible?
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sevenof400 on April 04, 2019, 02:08:12 pm
This may not be exactly by the book, but here's what comes to my mind anyway.......

I know you said non-head injury, but let's start with a head injury.  Mainly because a head injury is one of those occurrences you just don't take a chance with - you stop play immediately.  I'd also stop play immediately if there was a breathing issue, or some other sign of obvious serious distress.  (And yes, i've seen a broken leg on the field of play - with the leg folded over on a 90 degree unnatural angle - we're stopping for this too).  The serious stuff - we are stopping for.  If a coach gets mad over losing a potential advantage when a serious injury situation occurs, too bad.     

Now, if it is NOT a head injury AND it is not serious, the referee needs to quickly assess the situation.

If the injured player is on the team NOT in control of the ball, I am going to try and let the play continue.  In many instances, a player down with cramps or even a decent knock is away from the active area of play (thus in no immediate danger), I want to let the play go until an opportunity presents itself to more naturally stop play (ball in touch, ball in keeper's hands, goal kick - something like this) that would NOT deny the team in possession an advantage. 

If the injured player is a teammate of the player in control of the ball, I am going to be much quicker to stop play because high school rules allow a means to handle this situation that club rules do not.  Specifically, if the referee stops the game to deal with an injury (meaning there is NOT any other reason for a restart), the ball can be put back in play with an indirect kick for the team in possesson of the ball.  I stil do not want to deny an advantage situation if one develops, but my natural reaction is going to be to stop play quicker when the team in possesion of the ball has an injury situation.     

I should pause here and say this is a subject that should be discussed in the pre game between officials.  Handling injury situations on the fly demands communication with the referee crew.  If I am the CR and an injury situation occurs, it is often (but not always) the case that play will move AWAY from the injured player.  If I (as the CR) do not feel I should stop play, I want my trail AR to then watch / observe the injured player.  If I have missed something (and the player may be in danger), I want my trail AR to let me know immediately (and if my lead AR sees this, they should mirror any signal from the trail AR). 

To directly answer the question, I (again as the CR) need to make a quick read of the injury situation and determine appropriate action(s) to take. 
If I believe I can allow play to continue (as the injury is not one that requires immediate assistance), I should allow play to conintue.
If I have any doubt about the injury situation, I should stop play and allow the player to be attended to because player safety is a primary concern for the referee crew.   
Every situation is unique and has to (quickly) be judged on its own merit(s). 
As a referee, I will not always make the right call in these situations so I understand why a referee would stop play if in doubt when an injury occurs.   
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sssuperpantherfan2 on April 04, 2019, 06:21:27 pm
Is it not legal to kick the ball if you are on the ground and not standing aside from a slide tackle?
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: WillC on April 05, 2019, 12:17:17 am
Is it not legal to kick the ball if you are on the ground and not standing aside from a slide tackle?

Playing the ball on the ground is not a foul by itself. It is perfectly legal as long as it is not deemed "dangerous play," which is defined as "...playing in such a manner which could cause injury to self or another player." If a player is scooting across the ground kicking at the ball by himself, he doesn't meet the threshold of "dangerous play." When there's another player nearby, kicking from the ground has the potential to meet this threshold.

In that situation, I tend to make the call based on the part of the foot swinging at the ball. Typically, if a player is on the ground and puts his laces through the ball, it's no more "dangerous" than a normal slide tackle. If he is sitting under someone and wildly swiping with his toes up and studs exposed, it's a different story, and would result in an indirect free kick.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arbitro on April 05, 2019, 01:16:47 pm
Now, if it is NOT a head injury AND it is not serious, the referee needs to quickly assess the situation.

If the injured player is on the team NOT in control of the ball, I am going to try and let the play continue.  In many instances, a player down with cramps or even a decent knock is away from the active area of play (thus in no immediate danger), I want to let the play go until an opportunity presents itself to more naturally stop play (ball in touch, ball in keeper's hands, goal kick - something like this) that would NOT deny the team in possession an advantage. 

If the injured player is a teammate of the player in control of the ball, I am going to be much quicker to stop play because high school rules allow a means to handle this situation that club rules do not.  Specifically, if the referee stops the game to deal with an injury (meaning there is NOT any other reason for a restart), the ball can be put back in play with an indirect kick for the team in possesson of the ball.  I stil do not want to deny an advantage situation if one develops, but my natural reaction is going to be to stop play quicker when the team in possesion of the ball has an injury situation.     


As Seven has said, the statement in bold type above is true for the current season.  However, the NFHS rules committee is changing this rule for the 2019/2020 school year.  The new text of the rules reads:
Quote

9-2-1: The game is restarted with a drop ball:
a. when the ball is caused to go out of bounds by two opponents simultaneously;
b. when the ball becomes deflated;
c. following temporary suspension of play for an injury or unusual situation and a goalkeeper is not in possession of the ball
d. when simultaneous fouls of the same degree occur by opponents.

Rationale: This rule changes the awarding of a free kick to a drop ball thereby possibly creating a scoring opportunity for a team undeserving.

and

9-3: In case of a temporary suspension due to injury or any unusual situation the game shall be started by a drop ball at the point where the ball was when the play was suspended (except as noted in 14-1-7), provided the ball was not in the goal area and not in the possession of the goalkeeper.  12-8-2

Rationale: This change will eliminate free kick opportunities that often create scoring opportunities that are not deserved.


So for the current season if the referee stops play solely to deal with an injury, a team in possession of the ball is given an indirect free kick for the restart.  Next year the restart will be a dropped ball unless a keeper has possession of the ball. 
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chandler on April 06, 2019, 12:19:28 am
As Seven has said, the statement in bold type above is true for the current season.  However, the NFHS rules committee is changing this rule for the 2019/2020 school year.  The new text of the rules reads:
So for the current season if the referee stops play solely to deal with an injury, a team in possession of the ball is given an indirect free kick for the restart.  Next year the restart will be a dropped ball unless a keeper has possession of the ball.

Seems like a lot of referees are already doing this (restart with a drop ball), which is fine with me.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Lionheart88 on April 09, 2019, 10:36:59 pm
Nevermind.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sevenof400 on April 10, 2019, 08:25:54 am
Nevermind.

You tease.      ;D
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: jimmyt on April 10, 2019, 08:47:24 am
If there is a restart of a drop ball after stoppage for injury, I have seen multiple refs tell the kids what to do next "drop it to the keeper" or telling one team to back up so they can drop it to the other team.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the wrong way of doing it. The ref should not give instruction for where the players must take the ball after the drop ball or tell one team to back up so he can drop it specifically for another team.

Any thoughts?

Personally, I like the indirect kick for injury stoppage.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Go Postal on April 10, 2019, 12:09:13 pm
Also when is appropriate for the team with the ball to play the ball (for instance, kick out of bounds) to the other team as a "courtesy" ball?

I like when they do that to show good sportmanship.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: VHSCoach2 on April 10, 2019, 01:06:28 pm
Also when is appropriate for the team with the ball to play the ball (for instance, kick out of bounds) to the other team as a "courtesy" ball?

I like when they do that to show good sportmanship.

We had an instance like this a few years ago. On our Senior Night, we wanted to start two seniors who had suffered season-ending (and, in their instances, career-ending since soccer wasn't an option in college) injuries. Communication between the coaches and referees took place before the match, and it was agreed upon that those two would "start" the match and just stand by the touch-line on the field. The other team kicked the ball out of bounds after kickoff, and we subbed those two off and then threw the ball back in to the other team and started playing.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arbitro on April 10, 2019, 02:45:36 pm
If there is a restart of a drop ball after stoppage for injury, I have seen multiple refs tell the kids what to do next "drop it to the keeper" or telling one team to back up so they can drop it to the other team.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the wrong way of doing it. The ref should not give instruction for where the players must take the ball after the drop ball or tell one team to back up so he can drop it specifically for another team.

Any thoughts?

Personally, I like the indirect kick for injury stoppage.
Also when is appropriate for the team with the ball to play the ball (for instance, kick out of bounds) to the other team as a "courtesy" ball?

I like when they do that to show good sportmanship.
These questions are directly related.  First off, the referee cannot officially tell players to kick the ball out, nor can they dictate which players can be present at a dropped ball or what should happen after the ball is dropped and hits the ground.  However, soccer as a world sport has a few conventions that high school players may or may not know, but referees may be inclined to encourage.  If Team A kicks the ball out because a player is hurt, when Team B takes the throw in they are expected to return the ball to Team A (in a manner that doesn't put B at immediate risk).  One act of good sportsmanship deserves another.  The same goes for some drop ball situations.  Rather than have a contested drop ball where players are at risk of kicking each other (or the referee!) a team may agree to kick the ball back to the other team's defensive end or keeper and not challenge for that ball.  The referee may even drop the ball to a keeper alone, but both teams understand the situation and are in agreement.  The decision is ultimately the players', not the referee's.

High school has a mix of players with varying degrees of experience with the game.  Players with limited exposure to soccer outside of high school may not be aware of this type of sportsmanship.  Sometimes referees take it upon themselves to educate them - with occasionally mixed results.  Most players will buy into the concept if it is explained to them, but ultimately it is their decision and the referee should not take that out of their hands.

Years back I was watching a U18 Rec game officiated by a state level referee (very experienced).  A drop ball situation occurred where it was appropriate for one team to get the ball, however several of the players were not knowledgeable enough to recognize it.  When both teams approached to contest the ball, the referee stepped in front of one player and dropped the ball to the other.  Let's just say there were some unhappy players (and fans).  The coach explained the reasoning to the players a few minutes later at the half and they understood, but a little explanation on the field by the referee would have been helpful!
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Go Postal on April 10, 2019, 07:00:48 pm
Thanks for explaining it more.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Go Postal on April 10, 2019, 07:01:41 pm
These questions are directly related.  First off, the referee cannot officially tell players to kick the ball out, nor can they dictate which players can be present at a dropped ball or what should happen after the ball is dropped and hits the ground.  However, soccer as a world sport has a few conventions that high school players may or may not know, but referees may be inclined to encourage.  If Team A kicks the ball out because a player is hurt, when Team B takes the throw in they are expected to return the ball to Team A (in a manner that doesn't put B at immediate risk).  One act of good sportsmanship deserves another.  The same goes for some drop ball situations.  Rather than have a contested drop ball where players are at risk of kicking each other (or the referee!) a team may agree to kick the ball back to the other team's defensive end or keeper and not challenge for that ball.  The referee may even drop the ball to a keeper alone, but both teams understand the situation and are in agreement.  The decision is ultimately the players', not the referee's.

High school has a mix of players with varying degrees of experience with the game.  Players with limited exposure to soccer outside of high school may not be aware of this type of sportsmanship.  Sometimes referees take it upon themselves to educate them - with occasionally mixed results.  Most players will buy into the concept if it is explained to them, but ultimately it is their decision and the referee should not take that out of their hands.

Years back I was watching a U18 Rec game officiated by a state level referee (very experienced).  A drop ball situation occurred where it was appropriate for one team to get the ball, however several of the players were not knowledgeable enough to recognize it.  When both teams approached to contest the ball, the referee stepped in front of one player and dropped the ball to the other.  Let's just say there were some unhappy players (and fans).  The coach explained the reasoning to the players a few minutes later at the half and they understood, but a little explanation on the field by the referee would have been helpful!
This^^^^
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: $aintMaximu$ on April 11, 2019, 07:44:05 pm
If anybody is a ref or understands rules related to the crowd and the refs authority PM me... unreal what just happened at a game
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arkiesoccer on April 11, 2019, 10:46:22 pm
Not a ref but would like to know... 8-)
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sssuperpantherfan2 on April 12, 2019, 06:24:03 am
I’m curious too, I’ve seen school admins come into the stands and speak to parents. The ref was bad, one of our players would get offside and then get back onside, the side judge would flag them when they touched the ball onside of the defense.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arbitro on April 12, 2019, 07:35:55 am
I’m curious too, I’ve seen school admins come into the stands and speak to parents. The ref was bad, one of our players would get offside and then get back onside, the side judge would flag them when they touched the ball onside of the defense.
I don't know about the specific incident you are describing because I wasn't there, but remember that offside position is determined when the ball is kicked to the player, not when the player receives the ball.  So if the attacker was past the second-to-last defender* when the ball was played or touched by a teammate, and he came back onside to receive the ball, he was still offside.

*The keeper is usually the last defender, so the rear-most field player is generally the second-to-last defender.  However, if the keeper comes way out of the goal, it could be a field player that is last and the keeper or another field defender that are the second-to-last defender.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: $aintMaximu$ on April 12, 2019, 07:51:19 am
So last night at our game Shiloh Vs. Gentry I was ejected from the game.  We have a very large growing student section that comes to our games.  I have been buying tacos and handing our the soccer horns to create some energy.  The student section is acting just like what you would see at a basketball game.  They are loud and obnoxious but not vulgar.  I set very close to them.  Towards the end of the first half the ref stopped the game and told them to sit down and shut up or he was going to forfeit the game.  The students sat down and didn't say a word, they were very shocked as this was a first.  Parents shocked too.  As he was walking away he angerly turned around and said - WHO SAID THAT!  ONE MORE WORD AND THIS GAME IS OVER!  The kids didn't say anything.  I yelled - what if I say something, what if somebody else says something and you think its the kids, will the game be over?  He then said you need to get out of here,  you need to go home.  He said this directly to me from the field to me in the stands.  I didn't argue.  I had parents telling me to leave so we didn't lose and the coach as well.  So I left.  My wife asked the ref at halftime what happened and if I could come back.  He said he didn't ask me to leave so he can't tell me if I can come back.  She said- I heard you?  He then said- Don't listen to her and walked away...

I came back and he stopped the game, got our Secondary Dean to ask me to leave or we would be forced to forfeit the game??  So I was like, you just said you never asked me to leave??  So I left again...  Very very strange situation.  The Gentry coach had no issues and said they had the same situation at their game. 

 
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arbitro on April 12, 2019, 09:09:53 am
So last night at our game Shiloh Vs. Gentry I was ejected from the game.  We have a very large growing student section that comes to our games.  I have been buying tacos and handing our the soccer horns to create some energy.  The student section is acting just like what you would see at a basketball game.  They are loud and obnoxious but not vulgar.  I set very close to them.  Towards the end of the first half the ref stopped the game and told them to sit down and shut up or he was going to forfeit the game.  The students sat down and didn't say a word, they were very shocked as this was a first.  Parents shocked too.  As he was walking away he angerly turned around and said - WHO SAID THAT!  ONE MORE WORD AND THIS GAME IS OVER!  The kids didn't say anything.  I yelled - what if I say something, what if somebody else says something and you think its the kids, will the game be over?  He then said you need to get out of here,  you need to go home.  He said this directly to me from the field to me in the stands.  I didn't argue.  I had parents telling me to leave so we didn't lose and the coach as well.  So I left.  My wife asked the ref at halftime what happened and if I could come back.  He said he didn't ask me to leave so he can't tell me if I can come back.  She said- I heard you?  He then said- Don't listen to her and walked away...

I came back and he stopped the game, got our Secondary Dean to ask me to leave or we would be forced to forfeit the game??  So I was like, you just said you never asked me to leave??  So I left again...  Very very strange situation.  The Gentry coach had no issues and said they had the same situation at their game. 

 
Whew!  A lot to deal with here!  A couple of ground rules though.  I am not going to throw the referee under the bus because I wasn’t there and I have no idea what was said, what was heard (not always the same thing), and what other things were happening that we don’t know about.

First, the referee has the authority to have spectators removed from the game.  The referee also has the authority to terminate the game if he deems it necessary, such as for unsafe playing conditions.  The referee cannot make a team forfeit.  What he will do is write up a report describing why the game was terminated, and what the time and score were when the game was ended.  AAA will decide whether the score should stand as a final result, the game should be replayed at another date, or any other result they decide fits the situation including forfeit by the “offending” side.

What kind of things might the referee hear that could cause him to have someone ejected?  Personal insults directed at players.  Persistent insults directed at the referee crew.  Audible comments questioning the honesty of the referee crew.  Loud abusive or vulgar comments in general.  No doubt there are others.  If the referee decides that someone must leave, the proper procedure is to go to the coach or the appropriate administrator and have them deal with it.  Having the referee deal directly with spectators is not generally a good idea.

In the game in question, was the referee correct in his decision to deal with spectator conduct?  I don’t know because I wasn’t there, but he probably would have been better off going through the administration rather than trying to address it directly.  It sounds like he backed himself into a corner with the “one more word” type of comment, and when you challenged him on it he was left with little alternative but to have you leave.  It’s easy to say how things could have or should have gone when we talk about them the next day, but in the heat of the moment things don’t always go the way we’d like.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sssuperpantherfan2 on April 12, 2019, 09:13:09 am
I don't know about the specific incident you are describing because I wasn't there, but remember that offside position is determined when the ball is kicked to the player, not when the player receives the ball.  So if the attacker was past the second-to-last defender* when the ball was played or touched by a teammate, and he came back onside to receive the ball, he was still offside.

*The keeper is usually the last defender, so the rear-most field player is generally the second-to-last defender.  However, if the keeper comes way out of the goal, it could be a field player that is last and the keeper or another field defender that are the second-to-last defender.

They came back onside, not to receive a direct pass, the ball was moved around some then passed to the player that came back onside. So how much time or passes need to be made before a player can be onside after moving from offside? Smart defensive players will pull attackers off easily.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Buck183 on April 12, 2019, 09:38:25 am
They came back onside, not to receive a direct pass, the ball was moved around some then passed to the player that came back onside. So how much time or passes need to be made before a player can be onside after moving from offside? Smart defensive players will pull attackers off easily.

I vividly remember the incident you speak of.  If I remember correctly the opposing coach lobbied the AR for the call and got his way. 
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chaoslord on April 12, 2019, 09:39:18 am
Whew!  A lot to deal with here!  A couple of ground rules though.  I am not going to throw the referee under the bus because I wasn’t there and I have no idea what was said, what was heard (not always the same thing), and what other things were happening that we don’t know about.

First, the referee has the authority to have spectators removed from the game.  The referee also has the authority to terminate the game if he deems it necessary, such as for unsafe playing conditions.  The referee cannot make a team forfeit.  What he will do is write up a report describing why the game was terminated, and what the time and score were when the game was ended.  AAA will decide whether the score should stand as a final result, the game should be replayed at another date, or any other result they decide fits the situation including forfeit by the “offending” side.

What kind of things might the referee hear that could cause him to have someone ejected?  Personal insults directed at players.  Persistent insults directed at the referee crew.  Audible comments questioning the honesty of the referee crew.  Loud abusive or vulgar comments in general.  No doubt there are others.  If the referee decides that someone must leave, the proper procedure is to go to the coach or the appropriate administrator and have them deal with it.  Having the referee deal directly with spectators is not generally a good idea.

In the game in question, was the referee correct in his decision to deal with spectator conduct?  I don’t know because I wasn’t there, but he probably would have been better off going through the administration rather than trying to address it directly.  It sounds like he backed himself into a corner with the “one more word” type of comment, and when you challenged him on it he was left with little alternative but to have you leave.  It’s easy to say how things could have or should have gone when we talk about them the next day, but in the heat of the moment things don’t always go the way we’d like.


I was typing up my reply and of course you beat me to it. I agree with just about everything you said here. I will nitpick one thing where I disagree with you (and this is more a definition thing because in practice it works out about the same), in that I don't believe the referee has any authority themselves to have spectators removed from the game. Everything from NFHS Rules Books leads me to believe that the referee must go through the coach/admin (1-6 Situation). The authority to eject spectators belongs with the home team admin IMO. I think this is an important distinction to make because I believe the idea that "I as the referee can eject spectators" leads to situations like this which should 100% never happen. Any requests to have a person removed need to go through the site admins.There is no reason for a referee to be dealing with spectators on their own short of, say, there are no bleachers and fans have put their chairs a little too close to the touchline, and even then it's still probably easier/preferred to work with the site. That said, I would hate to work at a site where the home team admin overruled me on this issue and would probably request to not go back the rest of that year (if not longer), so in practice it should work out to be "If I want this person gone, they are gone".

As a management tool, definitely agree on "one more word". I cringe when I hear an official use something like that. People *love* to push that button and see what happens.

If the events were described accurately, the referee was in the wrong to act in this manner. But, arguing with a referee can be like arguing with a cop at a traffic stop: you may be right but it may not be the time to show how smart you are. Again, if described accurately, I sincerely doubt AAA would have handed down a forfeit, but if the referee terminates the game that night is ruined for the players even if it gets rescheduled for later.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: $aintMaximu$ on April 12, 2019, 09:49:33 am
I was typing up my reply and of course you beat me to it. I agree with just about everything you said here. I will nitpick one thing where I disagree with you (and this is more a definition thing because in practice it works out about the same), in that I don't believe the referee has any authority themselves to have spectators removed from the game. Everything from NFHS Rules Books leads me to believe that the referee must go through the coach/admin (1-6 Situation). The authority to eject spectators belongs with the home team admin IMO. I think this is an important distinction to make because I believe the idea that "I as the referee can eject spectators" leads to situations like this which should 100% never happen. Any requests to have a person removed need to go through the site admins.There is no reason for a referee to be dealing with spectators on their own short of, say, there are no bleachers and fans have put their chairs a little too close to the touchline, and even then it's still probably easier/preferred to work with the site. That said, I would hate to work at a site where the home team admin overruled me on this issue and would probably request to not go back the rest of that year (if not longer), so in practice it should work out to be "If I want this person gone, they are gone".

As a management tool, definitely agree on "one more word". I cringe when I hear an official use something like that. People *love* to push that button and see what happens.

If the events were described accurately, the referee was in the wrong to act in this manner. But, arguing with a referee can be like arguing with a cop at a traffic stop: you may be right but it may not be the time to show how smart you are. Again, if described accurately, I sincerely doubt AAA would have handed down a forfeit, but if the referee terminates the game that night is ruined for the players even if it gets rescheduled for later.

Arbitro makes a good point that I backed the ref into a corner.  My intent really was to defend the kids and also point out that anybody could say something and now that would result in a loss/forfeit.

The story is pretty boring really.  Nothing crazy happend.  No cussing, threats or anything else.  If I am going to get throw out, at least have a good story... I don't have one however...

I guess the ref understood the rules as you have said and that is why he told my wife he didn't ask or tell me to leave.  Because he knew it was outside of his scope...
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: $aintMaximu$ on April 12, 2019, 09:50:19 am
And the worse part is I didn't even get a grilled hot dog...  Tragic...
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chaoslord on April 12, 2019, 09:55:29 am
They came back onside, not to receive a direct pass, the ball was moved around some then passed to the player that came back onside. So how much time or passes need to be made before a player can be onside after moving from offside? Smart defensive players will pull attackers off easily.

Each time one of their teammates touches/plays the ball, a new offside snapshot is created. Their teammate is dribbling, left foot touch, right foot touch, left foot touch, right foot touch, at each of those points their previous status is disregarded and they are handed a new one based on if they were in an offside position or not at that touch. There is no time element involved outside of that. If my teammate sent a through ball down the field and the ball just rolls to a stop and no one touches it for 5 minutes (everyone decided to stop and watch some birds flying overhead), if I was in an offside position when the pass was made, I'll still be penalized for being offside if I'm the first to touch it after the birds finally leave. As long as you were onside the last time a teammate touched the ball, you're onside until the next time a teammate touches the ball.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arbitro on April 12, 2019, 10:03:16 am
I was typing up my reply and of course you beat me to it. I agree with just about everything you said here. I will nitpick one thing where I disagree with you (and this is more a definition thing because in practice it works out about the same), in that I don't believe the referee has any authority themselves to have spectators removed from the game. Everything from NFHS Rules Books leads me to believe that the referee must go through the coach/admin (1-6 Situation). The authority to eject spectators belongs with the home team admin IMO. I think this is an important distinction to make because I believe the idea that "I as the referee can eject spectators" leads to situations like this which should 100% never happen. Any requests to have a person removed need to go through the site admins.There is no reason for a referee to be dealing with spectators on their own short of, say, there are no bleachers and fans have put their chairs a little too close to the touchline, and even then it's still probably easier/preferred to work with the site. That said, I would hate to work at a site where the home team admin overruled me on this issue and would probably request to not go back the rest of that year (if not longer), so in practice it should work out to be "If I want this person gone, they are gone".
The referee can never physically make a spectator leave. All they can do is terminate the game if they feel the situation warrants it.  So if a fan was being abusive and the coach/admin refused to deal with it, the referee could decide that it was unsafe to continue and terminate.  Not a situation anyone wants to get into because everyone is going to look bad after the fact.  There are always extreme cases that merit immediate ejection, but ideally in most normal situations the conduct will be addressed and play can go on without anyone have to go.
Quote
As a management tool, definitely agree on "one more word". I cringe when I hear an official use something like that. People *love* to push that button and see what happens.
Maybe not Refereeing 101, but something all referees should learn ASAP.
Quote
If the events were described accurately, the referee was in the wrong to act in this manner. But, arguing with a referee can be like arguing with a cop at a traffic stop: you may be right but it may not be the time to show how smart you are. Again, if described accurately, I sincerely doubt AAA would have handed down a forfeit, but if the referee terminates the game that night is ruined for the players even if it gets rescheduled for later.
I don't know that we can say the referee was wrong in his intent (we just don't know) but he should have used the correct process to resolve the situation.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sevenof400 on April 12, 2019, 10:47:02 am
Each time one of their teammates touches/plays the ball, a new offside snapshot is created. Their teammate is dribbling, left foot touch, right foot touch, left foot touch, right foot touch, at each of those points their previous status is disregarded and they are handed a new one based on if they were in an offside position or not at that touch. There is no time element involved outside of that. If my teammate sent a through ball down the field and the ball just rolls to a stop and no one touches it for 5 minutes (everyone decided to stop and watch some birds flying overhead), if I was in an offside position when the pass was made, I'll still be penalized for being offside if I'm the first to touch it after the birds finally leave. As long as you were onside the last time a teammate touched the ball, you're onside until the next time a teammate touches the ball.

And some of you will think Chaoslord is stretching the truth here - this has happened before (albeit not in HS soccer but youth soccer...)
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: pantherdad on April 12, 2019, 12:28:30 pm
In two of the high school games I've officiated this season (as center ref in one and as assistance ref in the other) we have had to ask coaches/admin to remove spectators or risk immediate termination of the match. Both expulsions were attributed the use of vulgar language, in particular the "F" word. Whenever a spectator screams that expletive across the field at an official, coach, player or whoever, it's the duty of the official to ask the admin/coach to have them removed or risk termination of the match. I would never issue a "one more time" warning. It's crazy that I've experienced this twice this season; I've never seen it happen in the years I've been watching/coaching/officiating soccer ever.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: $aintMaximu$ on April 12, 2019, 12:45:26 pm
In two of the high school games I've officiated this season (as center ref in one and as assistance ref in the other) we have had to ask coaches/admin to remove spectators or risk immediate termination of the match. Both expulsions were attributed the use of vulgar language, in particular the "F" word. Whenever a spectator screams that expletive across the field at an official, coach, player or whoever, it's the duty of the official to ask the admin/coach to have them removed or risk termination of the match. I would never issue a "one more time" warning. It's crazy that I've experienced this twice this season; I've never seen it happen in the years I've been watching/coaching/officiating soccer ever.

If somebody was doing that near me I would ask them to leave as well... 
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: AirWarren on April 17, 2019, 09:30:20 pm
Max, you’re a thug.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: slawdawg millionaire on April 17, 2019, 11:50:43 pm
One thing I've noticed this year is that there have been a lot more indirect free kicks. I'm really only used to seeing those given when the keeper improperly picks up a back pass from a foot. But then yesterday, a girl from Mountain Home with possession of the ball got taken out right outside of the box, and the Lady Bombers were given an indirect kick instead of a chance to go for goal directly. It seems like most of the infractions I've seen that haven't resulted in penalty kicks have been penalized with indirect free kicks.

Has there been a rule change to have more indirect kicks in the high school game?
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: pantherdad on April 18, 2019, 07:44:20 am
If the player with the ball was "taken out" outside the box, it would still be a direct free kick; any foul that is a result of contact is usually direct. Not sure what happened in the scenario that you described that would result in an indirect kick
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: $aintMaximu$ on April 18, 2019, 08:15:42 am
Max, you’re a thug.

Ruthless....
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arbitro on April 18, 2019, 02:29:50 pm
The majority of indirect free kicks come from either offside or dangerous play, with a few for obstruction (no contact) or illegal touch by the keeper in their PA.  You don't notice the ones from offside because not many people try to kick the ball directly into the goal from the other end of the field.  Dangerous play (high kicks in traffic, low headers in traffic, playing the ball on the ground in traffic, any other similar play that endangers the safety of a player) can happen anywhere on the field.  A dangerous play violation almost never involves contact between players.  It's hard to imagine an indirect free kick for a player being "taken out" unless it was for another violation that happened first.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arkiesoccer on April 23, 2019, 09:58:43 am
Penalty run up question – was at a local youth practice and the coach was explaining the PK rules and he mentioned that you could start your run-up, stop, back up and then have a go at it (which you can do on a free kick).  I told him that once you start your PK run up you had to keep moving forward and continue on through with the kick or it would be disallowed.  Which is the way I have always heard the rules explained – he mentioned that it didn’t use to be that way.  So of course I was questioning if I had been wrong all along so I took a look at the LOTG and it is honestly not very clear concerning the run up – it mentions illegal feinting but then that is not defined anywhere.  Any other interpretations or guidance?
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chaoslord on April 23, 2019, 11:07:56 am
Penalty run up question – was at a local youth practice and the coach was explaining the PK rules and he mentioned that you could start your run-up, stop, back up and then have a go at it (which you can do on a free kick).  I told him that once you start your PK run up you had to keep moving forward and continue on through with the kick or it would be disallowed.  Which is the way I have always heard the rules explained – he mentioned that it didn’t use to be that way.  So of course I was questioning if I had been wrong all along so I took a look at the LOTG and it is honestly not very clear concerning the run up – it mentions illegal feinting but then that is not defined anywhere.  Any other interpretations or guidance?

I know you didn't specifically ask about NFHS, but since we are in the high school forum I'll cover the differences between USSF and NFHS on this.

USSF: Stopping in the run up is fine as long as the run up is not yet completed. Backing up starts to get into a gray area. Illegal feinting is faking to kick the ball after having stopped the run up. It kinda gets covered with

"Q2: Why is illegal feinting by the penalty kicker an IDFK even when the player scores?
A player who deliberately stops at the end of their run and then feints to gain an advantage is deliberately breaking the Law."

This guidance is nearly a decade old at this point, but a memorandum put out by USSF when the Laws changed to address illegal feinting said "Players may feint during the run to the ball (so long as this does not involve, in the opinion of the referee, excessive changes in direction or similar delays in the taking of the kick) but feinting actions once the run to the ball is complete are now to be considered a violation of Law 14 by the kicker." I don't believe there has since been any superseding guidance since then and USSF's Dropbox won't load for me to double check but I don't remember anything put out about this in any of the Futuro courses either. I won't lie to you, you will get some referees who will shut down a stop in USSF, but the way the laws are written today, stops are fine if the run up isn't finished and they aren't excessive in nature.

NFHS: "The player taking the penalty kick is permitted to use a stutter-step or a hesitation move provided there is no stopping and there is continuous movement toward the ball." 
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Go Postal on April 23, 2019, 11:51:36 pm
So, clean tackle or dive?
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/12Vujj7Zh7dTPy/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5cbfea89467762336703eb05)
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: $aintMaximu$ on April 25, 2019, 11:28:37 am
So, clean tackle or dive?
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/12Vujj7Zh7dTPy/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5cbfea89467762336703eb05)

Looks clean to me...
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: AirWarren on April 25, 2019, 02:06:02 pm
So, clean tackle or dive?
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/12Vujj7Zh7dTPy/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a5cbfea89467762336703eb05)

Looks clean to me.

FIFA 2019 would disagree with me though....

Got a red card last night on a clean tackle.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: VHSCoach2 on April 25, 2019, 02:37:14 pm
Looks clean to me.

FIFA 2019 would disagree with me though....

Got a red card last night on a clean tackle.

I played around on FIFA to see if any discrepancy was shown between clean and dirty tackles. More often than not, the algorithm in the game gives a straight red for any kind of tackle, clean or not.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Buck183 on May 02, 2019, 09:10:52 am
Scenario in game last night.   

Team A is attacking on Team B's goal late in the game with under a minute to play.  Score is tied 1-1.  Team B defends attack inside the box with players going all over the place.  Team B clears the ball to the outside and the midfielder is carrying the ball aggressively up the field on the sideline for a late game counter attack.  Team A has two players down on opposite side of Team B's box with each of them holding their leg and rolling around.  (this happened during original attack on goal)  Team B has advantage and numbers moving the ball quickly down the side of the field.  Time left in regulation is .16 seconds.  At this point in time center ref sees the two players from Team A rolling around the on the ground holding their legs and proceeds to blow the whistle and stop play. 

Given the amount of time left in regulation and the score, was this the right call or not? 
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: jimmyt on May 02, 2019, 09:15:33 am
Was Team A Siloam and Team B Russellville?

We would need to see the mayhem on the original attack to see if there were any possible real injuries or if it appeared to just be stalling. If it seemed like stalling, let them play...
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Buck183 on May 02, 2019, 09:18:31 am
Was Team A Siloam and Team B Russellville?

We would need to see the mayhem on the original attack to see if there were any possible real injuries or if it appeared to just be stalling. If it seemed like stalling, let them play...

LOL...opposite.  Team A Russellville, and Team B Siloam. 

I'll add more to the confusion.  Clock was stopped.  Both players had trainers attending to them, only one of them had to leave the field when all was said and done. 
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sevenof400 on May 02, 2019, 09:29:36 am
LOL...opposite.  Team A Russellville, and Team B Siloam. 

I'll add more to the confusion.  Clock was stopped.  Both players had trainers attending to them, only one of them had to leave the field when all was said and done.

Both players should have to leave the game if bench personnel attended to them on the field. 

It is hard to say in this situation whether or not play should (or should not) have been stopped.
But I do want to refer back to this message: https://forums.fearlessfriday.com/index.php?topic=158924.msg3693005#msg3693005
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Sir Alex on May 04, 2019, 09:32:08 am
Wish that the NFHS rules committee would stop worrying about uniforms and start focusing in on players hitting/charging players after they are shooting or playing a longer ball. Many times these players are left in a vulnerable position where they can not brace for the hit or the fall. IMO it should be a cautionable offense and should be a point of emphasis to protect the players. 
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Go Postal on May 05, 2019, 09:51:59 pm
Is there any limitations in high school soccer on how many times that you can put substitutes in and also any limitations of how many players?
Can you also answer the same questions for club, college and pro?
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Buck183 on May 06, 2019, 09:12:58 am
Is there any limitations in high school soccer on how many times that you can put substitutes in and also any limitations of how many players?
Can you also answer the same questions for club, college and pro?

I am not an official, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I'm pretty sure one could watch the Mountain Home boy's team and ascertain that there isn't a limit on the number of substitutions allowed in a high school game by the AAA.  :)
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arkiesoccer on May 06, 2019, 09:50:16 am
Most youth club soccer leagues don’t have substitution rules. There are several clubs that participate in the NPL and there is a substitution limit of seven for each half and once you are subbed out in a half, you are not allowed to renter in the same half.

NCAA allows one reentry and it can only be in the second half
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Striker on May 06, 2019, 10:24:28 pm
Is there any way AAA can address the issue of handballs in high school . As a formerly certified ref and also a soccer player from toddler to college, and as a fan now who has watched multiple games every season there is a complete lack of understanding what a handball is. I would say that about 85-90% of handballs called in high school are the wrong call. There is very little to no understanding the difference between voluntary/involuntary with regards to hand placement. Unfortunately these missed calls very often determine the game and create a scoring opportunity for a team that had no chance of scoring due to an inadvertant handball on the edge of the box. I know that one problem is that there is a shortage of referees and also retraining them would be very difficult and expensive. In my honest opinion I think the rules should be changed to make the penalty box that awards a penalty smaller. Maybe an infraction in the 6 would constitute a pk while an infraction in the 18 would be a direct free kick. It is just frustrating as a fan to watch games be determined by a handball that may or may not have been a handball, in a position where the other team had no chance of scoring and now they get a chance at a free goal with their best player getting to shoot.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: RazorDad on May 07, 2019, 12:25:58 am
Is there any way AAA can address the issue of handballs in high school . As a formerly certified ref and also a soccer player from toddler to college, and as a fan now who has watched multiple games every season there is a complete lack of understanding what a handball is. I would say that about 85-90% of handballs called in high school are the wrong call. There is very little to no understanding the difference between voluntary/involuntary with regards to hand placement. Unfortunately these missed calls very often determine the game and create a scoring opportunity for a team that had no chance of scoring due to an inadvertant handball on the edge of the box. I know that one problem is that there is a shortage of referees and also retraining them would be very difficult and expensive. In my honest opinion I think the rules should be changed to make the penalty box that awards a penalty smaller. Maybe an infraction in the 6 would constitute a pk while an infraction in the 18 would be a direct free kick. It is just frustrating as a fan to watch games be determined by a handball that may or may not have been a handball, in a position where the other team had no chance of scoring and now they get a chance at a free goal with their best player getting to shoot.

Welcome to the boards. You might as well get used to the bad calls and no calls.

While there are some great crews out there, there are also some terrible ones.  ARs that don’t understand offsides or are too slow to be in position to actually decide, bad handball calls like you talk about,  Centers that override good ARs that spot fouls, Centers that let games get out of control with dirty and dangerous play, etc. 

Just pray when you do draw one of the terrible ones. they do not let the game get out of control and cause a season (or career) ending injury to one of your players, like what happened earlier in our season this year.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Brownclown on May 07, 2019, 09:54:57 am
Welcome to the boards. You might as well get used to the bad calls and no calls.

While there are some great crews out there, there are also some terrible ones.  ARs that don’t understand offsides or are too slow to be in position to actually decide, bad handball calls like you talk about,  Centers that override good ARs that spot fouls, Centers that let games get out of control with dirty and dangerous play, etc. 

Just pray when you do draw one of the terrible ones. they do not let the game get out of control and cause a season (or career) ending injury to one of your players, like what happened earlier in our season this year.
I totally agree.  I can live with a few bad calls, but when the crew lets the game get out of control physically THAT'S when I have a problem.  Otherwise, I don't really care too much.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chaoslord on May 07, 2019, 10:19:24 am
Is there any way AAA can address the issue of handballs in high school . As a formerly certified ref and also a soccer player from toddler to college, and as a fan now who has watched multiple games every season there is a complete lack of understanding what a handball is. I would say that about 85-90% of handballs called in high school are the wrong call. There is very little to no understanding the difference between voluntary/involuntary with regards to hand placement. Unfortunately these missed calls very often determine the game and create a scoring opportunity for a team that had no chance of scoring due to an inadvertant handball on the edge of the box. I know that one problem is that there is a shortage of referees and also retraining them would be very difficult and expensive. In my honest opinion I think the rules should be changed to make the penalty box that awards a penalty smaller. Maybe an infraction in the 6 would constitute a pk while an infraction in the 18 would be a direct free kick. It is just frustrating as a fan to watch games be determined by a handball that may or may not have been a handball, in a position where the other team had no chance of scoring and now they get a chance at a free goal with their best player getting to shoot.

Here's the thing about handling: You are exactly right, but if everyone else in the stadium believes something to be handling, you can start to lose the game if you let it go. I call less handling fouls than most referees in the state by my estimation and it doesn't matter that my decisions may be correct on that, I don't get anything out of it because everyone thinks I got it wrong. I've started adjusting my game because calling something that isn't handling but that all 22 players think is handling helps me a lot more than showing off that I know the Rules so well.

Here is NFHS 12-2, in it's fullness: "A player shall be penalized for deliberately handling, carrying, striking or propelling the ball with a hand or arm. Exception: Goalkeeper when the ball is within his/her own penalty area."

It doesn't say anything about the player gaining an advantage because of the handling but I have had coaches, players, and, unfortunately, even referees use this to say why the believe something was deliberate handling. The expectations of just about every player and coach is at odds with the Rules provided by NFHS or the Laws provided by IFAB, so much so that the Laws of the Game are being rewritten to try to bring them more in line with the expectations. And then you add in high level instruction about things like "taking a risk" which may or may not trickle down to the referees, so more so than most decisions, what is considered handling will probably vary just about more than anything else from referee to referee.

For anyone curious, here is what the updated Laws of the Game will say about handling.

It is an offence if a player:
• deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball
• gains possession/control of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then:
* scores in the opponents’ goal
* creates a goal-scoring opportunity
• scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper

It is usually an offence if a player:
• touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
* the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
* the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm)

The above offences apply even if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close.

Except for the above offences, it is not usually an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:
• directly from the player’s own head or body (including the foot)
• directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
•if the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger
• when a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Striker on May 07, 2019, 12:32:57 pm
I completely agree with everything you have said. I think there are two answers to your predicament. The first is to change the fans expectations. The only way to do that is to call the game correctly for long enough so that they realize what the correct call is. Also I think the other way is to be vocal about it. This is twofold. First is to not be afraid to answer questions from the players. I see so many referees yell at players and even card players who are asking why they just got called for a foul or a handball. If a referee can not explain to a player what they did wrong then they probably made the wrong call. The second is to be more vocal during the play. The best move a ref can use is to yell “play-on” at the top of their lungs when a ball is handled but does not constitute a handball.  This lets the players and the fans know that you have seen what has happened and decided that it was not worthy of an infraction. This cuts down on the complaining a lot.  I just don’t think it is fair to the players to bend to the expectations of fans and change the laws of a game just because it makes life easier. That is just my opinion
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Go Postal on May 07, 2019, 01:01:25 pm
A lot of pitches are usually on schools football fields.  Can someone explain the soccer markings and their purpose?  For instance, the center circle, the goalie box, etc.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arbitro on May 07, 2019, 01:02:17 pm
I completely agree with everything you have said. I think there are two answers to your predicament. The first is to change the fans expectations. The only way to do that is to call the game correctly for long enough so that they realize what the correct call is. Also I think the other way is to be vocal about it. This is twofold. First is to not be afraid to answer questions from the players. I see so many referees yell at players and even card players who are asking why they just got called for a foul or a handball. If a referee can not explain to a player what they did wrong then they probably made the wrong call.


You are probably right about people eventually learning, but it may be a long and painful process.  Unfortunately some referees are still likely to take the easy way out, particularly if their knowledge is thin. 

Quote
The second is to be more vocal during the play.  The best move a ref can use is to yell “play-on” at the top of their lungs when a ball is handled but does not constitute a handball.  This lets the players and the fans know that you have seen what has happened and decided that it was not worthy of an infraction. This cuts down on the complaining a lot.  I just don’t think it is fair to the players to bend to the expectations of fans and change the laws of a game just because it makes life easier. That is just my opinion

In soccer referee speak, "play on" is reserved for advantage situations and should not be used as you suggested.  I've used "keep playing" or even "not deliberate" to indicate that hand and ball contact did not qualify as handling.

Referees should communicate with players during the game, but they can't afford to get into a lengthy discussion over calls or the game will grind to a halt.  A few words in explanation can help clear up confusion, but often players will still disagree and a longer discussion can actually be counterproductive and even end up in dissent (caution).
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arbitro on May 07, 2019, 01:38:43 pm
A lot of pitches are usually on schools football fields.  Can someone explain the soccer markings and their purpose?  For instance, the center circle, the goalie box, etc.
OK, I'll take a stab at it.

The center circle is there to define how close an opponent can be during a kickoff (10 yds).  The same is true for the penalty arc (also called the "D") at the top of the penalty area.  On a penalty kick all players except the kicker have to be outside the penalty area (18 yd box) and 10 yds or more away from the penalty spot.  The arc defines that 10 yds since the spot is only 6 yds from the top of the penalty area.

The penalty area (18 yd box) defines the area where the keeper can legally touch the ball with their hands.  Also, any free kick coming out (goal kick, defensive free kick) has to leave the penalty area before it can be touched by any other player.  Of course any defensive direct kick foul that occurs inside the penalty area results in a penalty kick.

The goal area (6 yd box) serves two purposes.  Goal kicks must be taken from anywhere within the goal area (including on the goal line).  Other free kicks for the defense that result from a foul inside the goal area can be taken from anywhere inside the goal area.  The other purpose involves indirect kick violations by the defense that occur inside the goal area (dangerous play and a keeper touching a ball passed to them by a teammate are two examples).  The resulting indirect free kick for the attacking team is spotted on the top of the goal area (6 yds from the goal line) closest to the spot of the violation).

Corner kicks must be taken from anywhere inside or on the corner arc.

Penalty kicks are taken with the ball placed on the penalty mark.

Goal lines and touch lines (side lines) define the area of play.  The center line divides the field in half, which is useful for kickoffs and determining where offside begins to be a consideration.  Kickoffs start at the center mark.

Occasionally you will see a small line perpendicular to the goal line that is 10 yds from the corner.  That is an aid to identify how close a defender can stand on a corner kick.

Miss any?
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Go Postal on May 07, 2019, 08:17:05 pm
When a team kicks off from the center circle, does it have to be in the middle of that circle or can it be to the left or right more?  This question came up in a previous game from a fan.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chaoslord on May 07, 2019, 08:34:47 pm
Arbitro you forgot the technical arhahahahaha, oh man, if only.

100% agree about using "Not deliberate". Ran into an issue on the first time I was in the middle of a U17 boys game and I turned a handling appeal down. "No! No! No!" I shouted, being right on top of the play. "What do you mean no?" the coach yelled in response and then a few more times as play went back the other way. "Not deliberate" is still very concise and passes along the info needed. (In a similar vein, I definitely like "keep going" a lot more than "no foul" or "nothing there" for other issues I ran into when I was a younger official.)

Postal, kickoff is supposed to be in the middle of the circle. It can't be a useful guide to keeping opponents 10 yards away from the ball if you shade a few yards to one side or the other! There is supposed to be a spot defined at the center of the field for the ball to be placed on. In the absence of one, as long as they're reasonable I'm good.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sssuperpantherfan2 on May 10, 2019, 10:56:03 am
If time is stopped for an injured player, shouldn’t the injured player leave the field before play continues?
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arbitro on May 10, 2019, 11:09:58 am
If a coach or trainer is called onto the field to tend an injured player, the player must leave the field.  Usually the referee makes a quick check on the player (while the clock is running) and if they decide that the player needs attention the clock is stopped and the coach is beckoned onto the field.  Generally if the player is going to remain on the field the clock does not stop, but I can imagine a situation where the referee might want to take a little more time evaluating the player without burning game time so they stop the clock briefly.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chaoslord on May 10, 2019, 12:42:52 pm
If time is stopped for an injured player, shouldn’t the injured player leave the field before play continues?

Yes.

3-3-2-b-2 “If the referee stops the clock for an apparent injury to a field player or goalkeeper, the field player or goalkeeper will have to leave the field.”
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arbitro on May 10, 2019, 01:20:24 pm
Yes.

3-3-2-b-2 “If the referee stops the clock for an apparent injury to a field player or goalkeeper, the field player or goalkeeper will have to leave the field.”
That's what I get for not confirming...
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chaoslord on May 10, 2019, 01:45:32 pm
That's what I get for not confirming...

It was a pretty recent change (last year maybe?)  and I’ve never seen a ref stop the clock without then following up by bringing the trainer/coach on so it’s easy to forget that they moved it from calling coaches on to stopping the clock being the trigger.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Bench Warmer Rv on May 10, 2019, 04:11:38 pm
Can a ref give a yellow/red card for a keeper running into a player after he has picked up the ball? I saw this in the Siloam vs lakeside game earlier. 
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arbitro on May 10, 2019, 05:51:40 pm
Can a ref give a yellow/red card for a keeper running into a player after he has picked up the ball? I saw this in the Siloam vs lakeside game earlier.
What was the restart after the card?  That might give some insight into what the call was. If the referee determined that the keeper could have stopped but instead chose to continue his run and deliberately collide with the player, that could be considered misconduct. Not saying that’s what happened, but it’s a possibility.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sevenof400 on May 10, 2019, 05:59:47 pm
Can a ref give a yellow/red card for a keeper running into a player after he has picked up the ball? I saw this in the Siloam vs lakeside game earlier.

Could there have been something said - foul language perhaps?
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chaoslord on May 10, 2019, 09:58:05 pm
Can a ref give a yellow/red card for a keeper running into a player after he has picked up the ball? I saw this in the Siloam vs lakeside game earlier. 

Saw the post right before I went to the movies so I've been thinking it over for a few hours. The short answer, of course, is yes.

There's a famous clip of Schumacher in 82 blowing a player up running out from his goal. Here is that video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGq7VcaHoqo). Now, Schumacher doesn't collect the ball there, but I would think most referees today would probably have a red card here even if he did collect the ball due to the wild nature he came running out at.

THAT SAID, keepers are still given a good amount of leeway. Some of yall may remember Neuer jumping over/through Higuain (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9XYzG2nyYk) in the 2014 World Cup final. I remember watching this play get debated in circles on a couple of referee forums. The majority opinion was no foul, and I believe that most referees polled today would still have no foul.

NFHS says that "a player who displays reckless play" is cautionable, and that "exhibiting violent conduct" or "committing serious foul play...and uses disproportionate and unnecessary force while playing for the ball". If, in the opinion of the referee, those boxes are ticked, you can go yellow or red. But without a better description or a video, it's hard to analyze what the referee did and pass judgment on it. I think it'd have to be fairly egregious to warrant a card, personally.

Here's one last clip from the 98 world cup (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qudo-G0QWQI) with a goalkeeper and player collision that I'll leave without any of my own commentary.

I'm with Arbitro in that I really, really, really want to know what the restart was. I hope the referee got it right! I'll admit that I'm a little nervous about this part.

Here's something interesting as I thought this over, although this is a slight derail: I'm having a hard time envisioning a foul where a keeper comes out punching/jumping for the ball that I go yellow on. Obviously if they come out sliding or playing the ball on the ground you can find a yellow, but like, take the Neuer example. That's a pretty typical keeper jump to punch away. If you land on it's a foul on Neuer, I think you have to go red instead of yellow if you are going for a card, right? And I think that may be why, traditionally, keepers are given leeway. Jumping with your fists to punch the ball is almost always going to endanger the safety of an opponent, as is jumping with a knee up. If you call a foul, you're going to have to strongly consider sending the keeper off. I just don't know that it can be done recklessly - it's either no foul, careless, or endangering I think given the particulars of how keepers jump/punch.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arbitro on May 10, 2019, 10:19:50 pm
I actually like the language possibility. NFHS allows cautioning a player (yellow card) for incidental foul language as opposed to red for offensive, insulting, or abusive language. So if the players collided and the keeper said something vulgar (but not necessarily directed at the other player) the referee could have given him the yellow. Hypothetically speaking of course.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chaoslord on May 10, 2019, 10:47:17 pm
I actually like the language possibility. NFHS allows cautioning a player (yellow card) for incidental foul language as opposed to red for offensive, insulting, or abusive language. So if the players collided and the keeper said something vulgar (but not necessarily directed at the other player) the referee could have given him the yellow. Hypothetically speaking of course.

Agree. More I think about it, seems the most likely, but a brave call to make in the playoffs, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Bench Warmer Rv on May 10, 2019, 11:09:43 pm
Saw the post right before I went to the movies so I've been thinking it over for a few hours. The short answer, of course, is yes.

There's a famous clip of Schumacher in 82 blowing a player up running out from his goal. Here is that video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGq7VcaHoqo). Now, Schumacher doesn't collect the ball there, but I would think most referees today would probably have a red card here even if he did collect the ball due to the wild nature he came running out at.

THAT SAID, keepers are still given a good amount of leeway. Some of yall may remember Neuer jumping over/through Higuain (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9XYzG2nyYk) in the 2014 World Cup final. I remember watching this play get debated in circles on a couple of referee forums. The majority opinion was no foul, and I believe that most referees polled today would still have no foul.

NFHS says that "a player who displays reckless play" is cautionable, and that "exhibiting violent conduct" or "committing serious foul play...and uses disproportionate and unnecessary force while playing for the ball". If, in the opinion of the referee, those boxes are ticked, you can go yellow or red. But without a better description or a video, it's hard to analyze what the referee did and pass judgment on it. I think it'd have to be fairly egregious to warrant a card, personally.

Here's one last clip from the 98 world cup (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qudo-G0QWQI) with a goalkeeper and player collision that I'll leave without any of my own commentary.

I'm with Arbitro in that I really, really, really want to know what the restart was. I hope the referee got it right! I'll admit that I'm a little nervous about this part.

Here's something interesting as I thought this over, although this is a slight derail: I'm having a hard time envisioning a foul where a keeper comes out punching/jumping for the ball that I go yellow on. Obviously if they come out sliding or playing the ball on the ground you can find a yellow, but like, take the Neuer example. That's a pretty typical keeper jump to punch away. If you land on it's a foul on Neuer, I think you have to go red instead of yellow if you are going for a card, right? And I think that may be why, traditionally, keepers are given leeway. Jumping with your fists to punch the ball is almost always going to endanger the safety of an opponent, as is jumping with a knee up. If you call a foul, you're going to have to strongly consider sending the keeper off. I just don't know that it can be done recklessly - it's either no foul, careless, or endangering I think given the particulars of how keepers jump/punch.

The keeper came out to collect the ball and the player was running into his path so he just decided to go into the collision. the ref gave the goalkeeper a yellow but then gave the goalkeeper a free kick I am not exactly sure what words were exchanged.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chaoslord on May 10, 2019, 11:20:01 pm
The keeper came out to collect the ball and the player was running into his path so he just decided to go into the collision. the ref gave the goalkeeper a yellow but then gave the goalkeeper a free kick I am not exactly sure what words were exchanged.

Look at the big brains on seven and Arbitro. This sounds like "called a foul on the attacker for the charge, yellow for incidental foul language after". Yall nailed it!

Did the ref make the goalkeeper come out of the game?
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Bench Warmer Rv on May 10, 2019, 11:21:16 pm
Look at the big brains on seven and Arbitro. This sounds like "called a foul on the attacker for the charge, yellow for incidental foul language after". Yall nailed it!

Did the ref make the goalkeeper come out of the game?

Nope the keeper was allowed to stay on
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: slawdawg millionaire on May 10, 2019, 11:47:56 pm
I got another scenario that made me question a referee. In the Batesville-Robinson match, Batesville's player made a good move while getting pulled back and got into the box. He then got wiped out on a slide tackle from behind, and the ref brings the play back to the first foul outside of the box instead of awarding the penalty. The ref even gestured like a pullback occurred after awarding the free kick outside of the box.

Do you think he just didn't deem the slide tackle to be a foul? I've seen my fair share of legal and illegal slide tackles, and the play in question was worthy of a yellow card, although most high school refs tend to not book fouls that result in penalties. Or is it a really bad rule in soccer to go back to the first foul even though the second would've been much more beneficial to the fouled party?
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: WillC on May 11, 2019, 12:41:06 am
I got another scenario that made me question a referee. In the Batesville-Robinson match, Batesville's player made a good move while getting pulled back and got into the box. He then got wiped out on a slide tackle from behind, and the ref brings the play back to the first foul outside of the box instead of awarding the penalty. The ref even gestured like a pullback occurred after awarding the free kick outside of the box.

Do you think he just didn't deem the slide tackle to be a foul? I've seen my fair share of legal and illegal slide tackles, and the play in question was worthy of a yellow card, although most high school refs tend to not book fouls that result in penalties. Or is it a really bad rule in soccer to go back to the first foul even though the second would've been much more beneficial to the fouled party?
First off, I'm taking your word for it that the slide tackle was a foul. It's always possible that the referee (correctly or not) judged it to be clean. That would make the answer simple as to why he pulled it back for the first foul.

On the assumption that it was a foul, was the slide tackle performed by the same player that was holding? If so, was there a distinct separation between the two actions? I ask because my first thought was that maybe the referee interpreted the play as a continuation of the same foul. If that indeed was the case, then he would be correct to pull it back out of the penalty area.

If he applied advantage and observed a completely separate foul afterward, he should have awarded the penalty. Of course, like any other discussion on this topic, I would have to see it to be sure.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chaoslord on May 11, 2019, 08:31:15 am
Nope the keeper was allowed to stay on

Uh oh.

Do you think he just didn't deem the slide tackle to be a foul? I've seen my fair share of legal and illegal slide tackles, and the play in question was worthy of a yellow card, although most high school refs tend to not book fouls that result in penalties. Or is it a really bad rule in soccer to go back to the first foul even though the second would've been much more beneficial to the fouled party?

I'm guessing that this is the case, that the referee decided it was not a foul. If the referee thought the tackle was a foul they should have awarded a penalty kick.

I ask because my first thought was that maybe the referee interpreted the play as a continuation of the same foul. If that indeed was the case, then he would be correct to pull it back out of the penalty area.

I'm curious about this. I know in USSF land a hold that begins outside the penalty area but continues into it results in a penalty kick (Law 12, "If a defender starts holding an attacker outside the penalty area and continues holding inside the penalty area, the referee must award a penalty kick."), not it being pulled back outside. While this is not exactly the same thing since we are considering "hold and then tackle" to be one continuous thing, I think the same principle would apply. I also know this is not USSF but lacking a rule to the contrary on it, I think following the same guidance is a good way to go. Can you elaborate a little further on what you mean with this?
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Ladyfan on May 11, 2019, 12:45:06 pm
Noisemakers- are cowbells, drums, and vuvuzelas, etc. allowed?
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arbitro on May 11, 2019, 12:57:29 pm
Uh oh.
Uh oh is right.  Any player receiving a yellow card has to leave the field and cannot return until the next legal substitution opportunity.  I could maybe imagine a referee pulling out the card but not actually displaying it and cautioning the player, sort of as a threat, but that would be confusing to everyone else and not a very good idea.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arbitro on May 11, 2019, 01:28:33 pm
Noisemakers- are cowbells, drums, and vuvuzelas, etc. allowed?
The AAA handbook addresses that for regional and state events:
Quote
Artificial Noisemakers. Artificial noisemakers shall not be used at any indoor event. Artificial noisemakers are items such as, but not limited to, megaphones, air horns, bells, whistles, clickers, thunder sticks, explosive devices, tape/CD players, and radios. Noisemakers that require an external power source are not allowed at benefit games, regular season events, and post-season events.
So the noisemakers you mentioned appear to be permitted at soccer games, but powered megaphones would not be.  I didn’t find any other mention.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Buck183 on May 11, 2019, 11:36:55 pm
Can a ref give a yellow/red card for a keeper running into a player after he has picked up the ball? I saw this in the Siloam vs lakeside game earlier.

The boys just returned from Searcy about an hour ago.  One of the players came by the house just now and elaborated a little on this series. 

He said the penalty was for intentional physical contact by the keeper.  He said there was no language involved in the scenario that constituted any infraction. 
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chaoslord on May 12, 2019, 08:27:48 am
The boys just returned from Searcy about an hour ago.  One of the players came by the house just now and elaborated a little on this series. 

He said the penalty was for intentional physical contact by the keeper.  He said there was no language involved in the scenario that constituted any infraction. 

Oh no. No no no. Please be wrong about this.

(To be clear, Buck, I believe you, but if this is right... hoo boy)
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sevenof400 on May 12, 2019, 08:30:17 am
Oh no. No no no. Please be wrong about this.

(To be clear, Buck, I believe you, but if this is right... hoo boy)

I can hear / see / feel the cringe coming from Chaoslord as he read the previous.....
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: MS_soccer on May 12, 2019, 09:03:08 am
Noisemakers- are cowbells, drums, and vuvuzelas, etc. allowed?


There were signs posted outside the stadium that read NO ARTIFICIAL NOISEMAKERS ALLOWED.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: sssuperpantherfan2 on May 12, 2019, 09:33:52 am
Oh no. No no no. Please be wrong about this.

(To be clear, Buck, I believe you, but if this is right... hoo boy)

I was there, the GK did a retaliatory check back to an opponent that that made initial contact, the ref saw on the GK retaliation. It wasn’t that big of a check or initial contact, nobody went to the ground.  The ref should have gave a warning, the ref spoke to the SS coach and either waved the yellow or allowed him to stay.  GK are always getting some contact and we were all confused by the refs action since he was at midfield and made the call.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Arbitro on May 12, 2019, 11:04:19 am
First a couple of basics:
Referees have to call what they see, not what they think might have happened.
Up until play has restarted, any call can be changed. Once play restarts (with the referee’s consent) the call stands.
The referee can get information from the rest of the referee crew to make sure the call is correct.

If we assume that no one screwed up, here is what might have happened. The referee saw the keeper initiate contact with the opponent, and from his angle it looked aggressive enough to merit a card. He then showed the card to the keeper which would have required the keeper to leave the field. Assuming the keeper was still in the penalty area, the restart would then have to be either a penalty kick if he thought the contact occurred during the challenge for the ball or possibly an indirect free kick for the attacking team if the keeper misconduct was separate from the possession play. Since neither the keeper leaving nor the attacking team getting a kick happened, the call had to have been changed. Either the referee got more information from the assistant referee or he reviewed in his own mind what he saw and realized that the initial contact was made by the attacking player. A foul by the attacker before any extra action by the keeper would change the restart to a free kick coming out for the defense. With the extra information, the referee then downgraded the punishment to keeper to a warning and rescinded the card. That would result in the keeper remaining on the field.

Is that what happened?  I don’t know, but for the sake of the referee and the teams playing I hope it was something similar.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chaoslord on May 12, 2019, 11:24:32 am
Good post, Arbitro. I landed at a slightly different “fingers crossed” interpretation:

*Referee sees the contact and decides “free kick coming out”
*In the moment to making that decision and getting the whistle up to blow, the keeper does his retaliation. It probably now looks like the referee is stopping play for the keeper.
*Referee cautions the keeper for the retaliation, but this doesn’t change the restart.

I’m not touching the rest of the caution part, haha.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Buck183 on May 12, 2019, 11:27:13 am
Oh no. No no no. Please be wrong about this.

(To be clear, Buck, I believe you, but if this is right... hoo boy)

I say we take it with a grain of salt.  Two reasons....

He wasn’t close to the play to be able to say that with certainty.
We are talking about a he said she said scenario.

I didn’t think it to be an end all description myself. In hindsight, I probably shouldn’t have said anything at all on here.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: chaoslord on May 12, 2019, 11:35:33 am
I say we take it with a grain of salt.  Two reasons....

He wasn’t close to the play to be able to say that with certainty.
We are talking about a he said she said scenario.

I didn’t think it to be an end all description myself. In hindsight, I probably shouldn’t have said anything at all on here.

I am glad for your input on it! Thr players story was probably right. My little freak out is if that was the reason for the yellow card I was worried about the direction the free kick should have gone. I should have waited until after breakfast and thought about it some more.
Title: Re: Ask the soccer referees....
Post by: Buck183 on May 12, 2019, 12:00:11 pm
I am glad for your input on it! Thr players story was probably right. My little freak out is if that was the reason for the yellow card I was worried about the direction the free kick should have gone. I should have waited until after breakfast and thought about it some more.

All good.  At the end of the day I can say without hesitation that your involvement here is always appreciated. You have been both an asset and an ally to all of us. 

In my mind the truth in the story lies somewhere between all the descriptions given here on this forum